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KWin On Mir: A Solution To Non-Existent Problem

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  • #16
    Originally posted by a user View Post
    i
    it feels here like a big kindagarden. it really makes me sad seeing how the linux community changed. it sounds as if former window users are hopping on linux now and are whining about every thing what made linux different in the past.
    No, I think the prevailing attitude is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!". A lot of people still need some convincing that Xorg is broken, as on the surface, it doesn't seem too bad. The people that are already convinced that Xorg is broken have already begun to accept the inevitability of Wayland.. So now, Wayland is stable, people are bringing out the same "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!".. But not against Wayland, it's against Mir now.

    Mir hasn't been doing a very good job at showing where Wayland is broken, but I think a key point that people are missing is that Mir might be able to work with proprietary Android blob drivers which would be critical to getting Mir to run on other smartphones other than the Ubuntu phone. Providing people the option to run Mir on their other devices, even if the manufacturer doesn't support it, sounds pretty interesting to me.

    Does Wayland ever plan to get proprietary Android binary blob drivers working with their display servers? Especially considering that Android's linux kernel has a patchset that still hasn't been merged into mainline linux... I doubt it. Mir, it appears, has that as a critical goal that's going to be extremely important. Whether or not Canonical can pull it off is anybody's guess.

    I'll bet you anything that Canonical is planning on running Google's Android patchset for the linux kernel and on top of that is going to be running Android device drivers in Mir to bring Ubuntu to all smartphones that can run Android today.
    Last edited by Sidicas; 03-08-2013, 08:23 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Sidicas View Post
      No, I think the prevailing attitude is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!". A lot of people still need some convincing that Xorg is broken, as on the surface, it doesn't seem too bad. The people that are already convinced that Xorg is broken have already begun to accept the inevitability of Wayland.. So now, Wayland is stable, people are bringing out the same "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!".. But not against Wayland, it's against Mir now.

      Mir hasn't been doing a very good job at showing where Wayland is broken, but I think a key point that people are missing is that Mir might be able to work with proprietary Android blob drivers which would be critical to getting Mir to run on other smartphones other than the Ubuntu phone. Providing people the option to run Mir on their other devices, even if the manufacturer doesn't support it, sounds pretty interesting to me.

      Does Wayland ever plan to get proprietary Android binary blob drivers working with their display servers? Especially considering that Android's linux kernel has a patchset that still hasn't been merged into mainline linux... I doubt it. Mir, it appears, has that as a critical goal that's going to be extremely important. Whether or not Canonical can pull it off is anybody's guess.

      I'll bet you anything that Canonical is planning on running Google's Android patchset for the linux kernel and on top of that is going to be running Android device drivers in Mir to bring Ubuntu to all smartphones that can run Android today.
      I'm not completely sure but I think Collabora had wayland running on android with android driver a year ago or something. Its old articles on Phoronix about it. But I'm nut sure if that project is particularly active now?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Akka View Post
        Are you sure it was xfce? I thought they still used gtk2?
        Reread my post Akka, I was talking about minimal environments LIKE XFCE (so was Daniel when he said it if you can find his post) Weston is basically a panel, task manager/switcher and maybe a systray.

        The only toolkits right now that support Wayland properly, just FYI, are Enlightenment and Qt5. GTK3 is still being sorted out if I remember correctly (could be wrong), and KDE will gain Wayland support when it rebases off of Qt5 for Frameworks 5

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        • #19
          Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
          oh snap.

          If Canonical keeps up with Mir and if it manages to become more successful than Wayland, it does get me to wonder what devs like Martin will do or say when they realize they might have to join. While I think Martin makes an excellent point, I don't think Mir is that bad; lets put it in this way - it's more complete than Wayland and it'll offer Android drivers, but it isn't as clunky and obsolete as X. Really the only serious problem with Mir (that I can see) is getting devs to port everything to it when they already are in the process of that for Wayland. In other words, I think Mir pisses off devs because it's too late. I'm sure if it existed BEFORE wayland then it would get the same positive attention as wayland, minus the few people who hate canonical just because they want to hate canonical.
          If... and if... and if...
          The only part where you do not use *if* is in the statement "it's more complete than Wayland", and it's totally wrong.
          Well done, mate.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by a user View Post
            i understand that the main dev of kwin gets upset by such a statement. i would most probably feel the same.

            but that doesn't make it better what he said a top of this (my quote above). beside of that, already the first statement i saw from that dev was already very aggressivly negative while trying to pretend neutrality, even before canonicle posted that announcement.

            in fact, we do not know what happens there in the backstage. and i do not want to judge who started what. but it pisses me off reading such idiotic statements like the ones above and i saw many of that style here in the forums.

            if canonical wants to start their own display server project then they have al right to do it and they do not own anybody to first ask for permission or get in contact with any other startup project with the same aim.
            why i haven't read any such statements when wayland started? sure even there were a lot of complaints like "why we need that? fragmentation bla bla". and now the same people seem to defend wayland >.>

            it feels here like a big kindagarden. it really makes me sad seeing how the linux community changed. it sounds as if former window users are hopping on linux now and are whining about every thing what made linux different in the past.


            I thing that Linux users are not whining. They just want the same things from the beginning of Linux time:

            1) GPL and open standards. They don't want Mir nor Wayland, nor Flash nor Net(Mono), nor Catalyst nor Nvidia_blob. They want a GPL_LLVM(GCC5 or 6), HTML5, VP9, and others.

            2) Compatibility with closed things. They don't prefer a new Kernel version but a new Wine version. They need the latest Lightspark. They prefer Unified_Graphics_Drivers that understand many Compilers(like GLSL and HLSL at the same time) and they don't need translations(glsl=disabled), plus free HLSL_compilers/state_trackers. They need Qemu to have 70+% translation efficiency, so they don't have to relay on closed Instruction_Sets. They need last generation Console_Emulators and Console destruction. And many more.

            I really think that companies like Red_Hat that they gain a billion or more per year, should be interested to make Linux and Libre_standards, destroy once and for ever anything else for good. They must spare like a hundred or two or more programmers to perfect Linux things.

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            • #21
              So, in short:

              - Canonical creates Mir.
              - Canonical announces move to Qt for Unity, expects that upstream will accept patchsets that provide Mir support for Qt
              - Cannonical expects Mesa to upstream their custom patches to make it Mir-compatible
              - Martin declared that they will never accept distro-specific patches just to support Mir and essentially told Canonical to sod off.

              Now, how long will we need to wait before Mesa tells Canonical the same thing?

              PS: This is getting old. Although I have a nagging feeling Mir might emerge the victor if only because Nvidia already appears to be in the process of supporting Mir with their proprietary blob.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sidicas View Post
                I'll bet you anything that Canonical is planning on running Google's Android patchset for the linux kernel and on top of that is going to be running Android device drivers...
                and marketing all of this as their own.

                If Google doesn't swat Canonical like a fly, then they are doing so for a reason and not due to oversight.

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                • #23
                  i really hope people could get around it and boycott this mess. the only technical merit in mir is android drivers and it would be less work to add that functionality to wayland than waste manpower on writing another display server. if you really think about it, the proof is in the pudding. if either upstart or unity were good solutions don't you think other distros would have adopted it? i think mir would follow the same path.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by garegin View Post
                    i really hope people could get around it and boycott this mess. the only technical merit in mir is android drivers and it would be less work to add that functionality to wayland than waste manpower on writing another display server. if you really think about it, the proof is in the pudding. if either upstart or unity were good solutions don't you think other distros would have adopted it? i think mir would follow the same path.
                    Not true, at least 4 different distributions attempted to adopt Unity, although some eventually abandoned it because of the crazy amount of out-of-tree patches that had to be made to the vanilla GTK3 stack in order to get it working.

                    Fedora initially considered porting Unity but (predictably) rejected it because it does not meet its upstream policy, Frugalware tried to support it but eventually abandoned their efforts on maintaining it. OpenSUSE also ported Unity initially and eventually gave up with maintaining the patches although it seems that a new maintainer is now working on doing so.

                    And of course, ArchLinux has everything, including Unity.

                    Unfirtuantely, Canonical might actually succeed with Mir if only because they are already in the process of seducing AMD and NVIDIA to port their blobs over to support Mir. As much as I wish Mir will fail badly as well chances are it will be Wayland that loses this little competition; if that happens, I can only hope all the other distros will eventually come around and provide Mir support. If we have to be stuck with an inferior display server that is Mir, at least make everyone use it so that compatibility issues are eliminated.
                    Last edited by Sonadow; 03-09-2013, 01:32 AM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Ericg View Post
                      o.O No its not. Go back a few articles and michael listed the "TODO" List for Mir. it was massive, and filled with a LOT of hardwork and NONE of Canonicals devs have any experience with the low level stuff. Wayland is basically usable now. I specifically asked Daniel Stone when Wayland would be considered "usable" and he said "If you like XCFE...its usable now." Meaning, minimal environments are done. KDE and GNOME have to be ported over still, KDE will happen when Frameworks 5 hits which hopefully will be this year. Gnome is currently ported off an old version of wayland, but is being worked on.
                      Wayland come an long end and is looking good. But its not even close to being rich enough for even XFCE. Wayland does not even have minimize/maximize enabled. Just read that here on phoronix, but there are enough other examples.

                      My hope is on wayland, but I expect Mir wil be the winner.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by tmpdir View Post
                        Wayland come an long end and is looking good. But its not even close to being rich enough for even XFCE. Wayland does not even have minimize/maximize enabled. Just read that here on phoronix, but there are enough other examples.

                        My hope is on wayland, but I expect Mir wil be the winner.

                        WHAT ?!?

                        Not even minimize and maximize are working under XFCE with Wayland ?!?

                        How can Wayland defenders say that it's usable if that even that "simple"/basic things are not working....even with XFCE ?!?

                        Everybody knows that i'm not exactly a UBUNTU fanboy but it seems to me that Wayland as still a loooooooonnnnnng way to go to be considered usable.

                        "Usable" w/o even Minimize and Maximize....i could even if it wasn't so

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by AJSB View Post
                          WHAT ?!?

                          Not even minimize and maximize are working under XFCE with Wayland ?!?

                          How can Wayland defenders say that it's usable if that even that "simple"/basic things are not working....even with XFCE ?!?

                          Everybody knows that i'm not exactly a UBUNTU fanboy but it seems to me that Wayland as still a loooooooonnnnnng way to go to be considered usable.

                          "Usable" w/o even Minimize and Maximize....i could even if it wasn't so
                          Purely personal opinion, but I stopped minimizing and maximizing windows ever since OS X's Expose was cloned in Compiz, KWin, Gnome 3 (for Linux) and third-party tools (for Windows) and I find that I'm much more productive than before.

                          YMMV, of course.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by AJSB View Post
                            WHAT ?!?

                            Not even minimize and maximize are working under XFCE with Wayland ?!?

                            How can Wayland defenders say that it's usable if that even that "simple"/basic things are not working....even with XFCE ?!?
                            Who has said that it is usable for everyday use? I have read every post on every thread on the subject and don't recall seeing anyone say that. I might have missed it in a post or two, but it is hardly a common sentiment here. They said it has had a stable release, has a stable API, and actually has something running, none of which Mir has. But nobody has said that everything it needs is present.

                            It has many, if not most, of the features that are needed, but certainly not all. If it did, it would be done, which nobody has claimed. This is in contrast to Mir, which has essentially none of the features.

                            That being said, phones don't need this, so it probably won't affect Tizen.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
                              What a sad joke is Wayland. How can you defend it even when after all these years of development they don't have basic features? Canonical got tired of waiting for these losers and said fuck it we're doing it our way. That is all that is happening.
                              So instead of just implementing the additional features they needed in an existing code-base, they instead decided to re-implement all the existing features AND planning as well? Yeah, that is going to speed things up a lot...

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
                                What a sad joke is Wayland. How can you defend it even when after all these years of development they don't have basic features? Canonical got tired of waiting for these losers and said fuck it we're doing it our way. That is all that is happening.
                                LOL. Ubuntu fanbois are like Apple fanbois, they totally lack knowledge yet the make the most noise...

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