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Mark Shuttleworth Goes Blogging On Ubuntu Defense

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  • #31
    Originally posted by uid313 View Post
    Yes, wouldn't it be nice if free software was the norm, not the exception?

    But how are we going to get there?
    If it is by selling our core values, then is it really worth it?

    I don't want Linux with adware, spyware, EULA, DRM, proprietary software, proprietary protocols, binary blobs, bundled software, browser toolbars, software that modify browser start page, backdoors, etc.

    Don't forget about transparency.
    Very well said. I have seen too many things I loved turn this way for a false hope of mainstream success only to not even achieve that due to the fact they had lost what it was that made them viable in the first place.

    As to the people complaining about Michael posting an article about Shuttleworth's blog (and even mostly leaving it to the man's own words), will you please grow slightly thicker skin? Come on, this is Michael Larabel for christs sake! He bashes everything! I mean, if anyone has gotten a really harsh mouthful from him over the past year it would be LGP, but I do not see you guys rising to their defence.

    Your reaction actually suggest that the people bashing Ubuntu might actually be on to something, and that they are hitting a nerve. Does not sound encouraging for them.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Milan View Post
      I will never understand ubuntu fanboys. Ok, I understand you are a fans, but despite all that is happening and that will happen you still somehow think that must be the good thing. Hilarious
      Ehh isn't that the definition of a fanboy?

      Comment


      • #33
        Since I use Ubuntu with mostly the Plasma desktop I would consider myself part of the Ubuntu community. I'm fairly new to linux (less than a year using linux) and I don't know how to code or understand a lot of these techical terms you guys use but I think i have a basic understanding of what Mark is saying. I think he wants to be like Apple, Windows and Android (regarding wealth), feels the goal is achieveable and will say/do anything to justify it and color it as politcally correct (politcally here means as in relation to the other distros).
        Oh well. There are other distros, if he makes a bad decision/s then we will abandon his distro right?
        Sailfish is targetting Wayland and that is their future linux competition on phones and tablets right?
        Valve is going with X and probably open to Wayland and that is their future desktop/gaming platform competition right?
        Opensuse is their enterprise competition and they are still same old same old right?
        So what are we getting next from Valve? Valve Debian or something like that?

        Comment


        • #34
          NVidia will take every opportunity to piss on anything that Intel touches... Finally the curtain is up, we can begin to see the real show. If this has no driver support for Wayland in it as well, that is....

          Edit: If I am wrong, I duly apologize in advance.
          Last edited by MartinN; 03-07-2013, 01:27 PM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by ninez View Post
            playing the 'lone-ranger' is exactly why i think they should do, as i said - maintain your sh*t out-of-tree then..

            Why should these upstream projects have the maintenance burden (for something that is Ubuntu-centric), when most of them are working towards a Wayland-centric, standardized stack across Gnu/linux? (which canonical is interfering with). ~ Upstream should just continue in the direction they are going (Wayland) and let Canonical deal with their own problems.

            Lots of companies maintain patchsets out of tree, when their goals aren't inline with upstream or incompatible to some degree. I don't see any reason for Canonical to be any different.
            I don't necessarily disagree, I'm just saying that it doesn't follow to consequently criticize Canonical for no upstream contributions. If their stuff is inward-focused and only serves their vision and therefore has no use upstream, then fine.

            Comment


            • #36
              Mark is such an inspiration for Linux. Thumbs up Mark for your dedication and vision.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by aironeous View Post
                Since I use Ubuntu with mostly the Plasma desktop I would consider myself part of the Ubuntu community. I'm fairly new to linux (less than a year using linux) and I don't know how to code or understand a lot of these techical terms you guys use but I think i have a basic understanding of what Mark is saying. I think he wants to be like Apple, Windows and Android (regarding wealth), feels the goal is achieveable and will say/do anything to justify it and color it as politcally correct (politcally here means as in relation to the other distros).
                Oh well. There are other distros, if he makes a bad decision/s then we will abandon his distro right?
                Sailfish is targetting Wayland and that is their future linux competition on phones and tablets right?
                Valve is going with X and probably open to Wayland and that is their future desktop/gaming platform competition right?
                Opensuse is their enterprise competition and they are still same old same old right?
                So what are we getting next from Valve? Valve Debian or something like that?
                The problem with jumping distros is that Canonical now has industry players like Valve targeting Ubuntu as a platform. In terms of consumer friendliness, the only distro I can think to compare to Ubuntu is probably Suse (Fedora has been fucking up a bit recently, and they have had more breakage issues than most, but I think it also has a hand in the game). While I like openSuse more than Ubuntu, a lot of the Suse defaults piss me off (you can't run anything in /bin without root privileges, for example, which is.. dumb - I think they are improving that, though). One problem is that momentum and community has been built up around Ubuntu, touting it as the way to go for desktop Linux for the masses, and now Canonical is taking all the wind out of the sails by backstabbing everyone.

                Sailfish and Tizen can both be competitive with Ubuntu Phone, but the problem is that neither of the former have the kind of marketing backing it to get it in Wal-Mart or carrier stores to be sold to users. The only real salvation in them is that since all these next gen phone platforms are targeting qt as the native toolkit, they should have no or barely any cross compilation complexity.

                Valve marketed GLX to developers as a platform for Linux gaming. Consequently, that means X is here to stay for a while, especially since Valve is putting X in the steambox. Since both Wayland and Mir can run X on top, though, it doesn't pose much of a problem, but developers should start writing against EGL and not GLX.

                Opensuse is a general purpose desktop OS like Ubuntu or Fedora. Nothing particularly enterprisey about it. It uses apparmor instead of selinux, for example, in terms of enterprise features. They use RPMs for packages. Right now it is probably my choice for install and forget general desktop os, despite my earlier gripes. I run Arch personally, though.

                Valve is putting out a shim layer over X to run Steam in its big picture mode. They will probably use a minimal gutted compositor if necessary, I imagine it probably isn't. I imagine they will base the distro off Ubuntu (maybe Debian) though, since their original releases had hard dependencies against apt.

                Also, I hope you are enjoying your time running GNU/Linux. Ignore the trolls, fight the good fight, and have fun. Don't worry about jumping ship from Ubuntu, worry when the applications you want stop working or it becomes unusable due to regressions. And then you are a clonezilla / any other backup utility / drop my /etc and ~/. files in a dropbox and switch distros.
                Last edited by zanny; 03-07-2013, 01:45 PM.

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                • #38
                  If you read the main post, it's about "We're not going to go rolling-release...but, we're considering whether more frequent releases would improve our ability to do releases well."
                  I wonder if this "LEAN" development model is based on an oversimplification of reality; as described, it seems to ignore the possibility of being on the over-frequent side of an optimum.

                  The post Mark's other post linked to (http://blogs.kde.org/2013/03/07/ubuntu-many-communities) doesn't seem clear to me.
                  But in a way, Jonathan seems to be saying something along the lines of "Mark says Canonical took the lead with Unity because he thought Gnome and KDE, the community-driven projects, weren't improving the experience for average users--a reasonable justification for the approach. The flip side of that is that Unity becomes a non-community-driven project. We are one, so you're welcome to contribute."
                  Mark's response is based on the premise that the community includes the hypothetical "average non-technical user".
                  The question which neither seems to address is which project actually benefits this user more.
                  I must admit that I have heard a number of anecdotes indicating that Unity works reasonably for at least some of the aforementioned group.
                  However, don't think that I'm advocating Unity! I've been happily using icewm since 2007, and wouldn't touch anyhting compositing, having eye candy, or with more 3D than a Motif scrollbar.

                  Also, while I disagree with the "buttons on the left" decision (my comment in the poll during Lucid development), I am aware that there was a technical reason. IIRC, it was to avoid putting them near the various applets and messages.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by zanny View Post
                    While I like openSuse more than Ubuntu, a lot of the Suse defaults piss me off (you can't run anything in /bin without root privileges, for example, which is.. dumb - I think they are improving that, though).
                    Eh? I'm on openSUSE and /bin/cp et al work just fine. It would be worrisome if it didn't.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by uid313 View Post
                      Yes, wouldn't it be nice if free software was the norm, not the exception?

                      But how are we going to get there?
                      If it is by selling our core values, then is it really worth it?

                      I don't want Linux with adware, spyware, EULA, DRM, proprietary software, proprietary protocols, binary blobs, bundled software, browser toolbars, software that modify browser start page, backdoors, etc.

                      Don't forget about transparency.
                      Wow that sounds exactly like Android... We already have that Linux Cononical X-X

                      Originally posted by talvik View Post
                      This time it's the Ubuntu community that is bashing Canonical.
                      The thing people need to understand is Michael uses Ubuntu (in a virtual machine on his macbook running osx).

                      The problem people have is the reluctance to help Wayland when they could of to suit their needs, now they *may* potentially eff up the driver situation for the rest of the Linux world that's not Ubuntu.
                      Last edited by nightmarex; 03-07-2013, 02:21 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        And if NVidia doesn't support/target Wayland...

                        Originally posted by talvik View Post
                        Not necessarily. According to the blog EGL has to be extended to support the display server. I don't think things are going to work right, if nvidia doesn't officially targets Wayland.

                        Don't forget to buy an Intel CPU/HD GPU laptop/desktop/whatever next - for a percentage of the price you pay for such hardware goes to the salaries paid out to the people working on Wayland right now.

                        It's capitalism at its finest here, and whomever has the biggest heft can influence outcomes and compete. Canonical, NVidia can influence certain outcomes. So can Intel.

                        I was pissed off at this Wayland/Mir split - now I don't care anymore. We all have to make a bet one way or the other - I am betting on X.org/Wayland/Intel running this marathon to the end in one piece.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by MartinN View Post
                          NVidia will take every opportunity to piss on anything that Intel touches... Finally the curtain is up, we can begin to see the real show. If this has no driver support for Wayland in it as well, that is....

                          Edit: If I am wrong, I duly apologize in advance.
                          Well, I think Nvidia's business is somewhat dependent on CPU manufacturers (for obvious reasons). So while they probably don't like that intel has moved into their market, they need Intel / AMD / ARM in a pretty big way. (remember Apple only supports Intel CPUs in Macbooks + Mac Pro, as one example).

                          Personally, i doubt nVidia would sabatoge Wayland, since afaict - in order to do that (if i was to speculate) they would probably need to not support extensions that are already a part of the EGL specification, or do something else like block Wayland in a very direct way ~ which probably wouldn't be a positive thing for them.

                          I imagine (if/when) nvidia adds EGL support in the Blob, they will do it to spec + possibly adding some 'unoffical' extensions and/or performance hacks. but this is my opinion and just a guess. (since i am in no way affiliated, nor privy to their plans... time will tell).

                          Originally posted by MartinN View Post
                          ...We all have to make a bet one way or the other - I am betting on Wayland/Intel running this marathon to the end in one piece.
                          I'm betting on that too. Canonical doesn't have much faith from me, compared to Redhat, Suse, Intel, etc - when it comes to producing good software.
                          Last edited by ninez; 03-07-2013, 02:34 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by ninez View Post
                            Well, I think Nvidia's business is somewhat dependent on CPU manufacturers (for obvious reasons). So while they probably don't like that intel has moved into their market, they need Intel / AMD / ARM in a pretty big way. (remember Apple only supports Intel CPUs in Macbooks + Mac Pro, as one example).

                            Personally, i doubt nVidia would sabatoge Wayland, since afaict - in order to do that (if i was to speculate) they would probably need to not support extensions that are already a part of the EGL specification, or do something else like block Wayland in a very direct way ~ which probably wouldn't be a positive thing for them.

                            I imagine (if/when) nvidia adds EGL support in the Blob, they will do it to spec + possibly adding some 'unoffical' extensions and/or performance hacks. but this is my opinion and just a guess. (since i am in no way affiliated, nor privy to their plans... time will tell).



                            I'm betting on that too. Canonical doesn't have much faith from me, compared to Redhat, Suse, Intel, etc - when it comes to producing good software.
                            I doubt NVidia is sinister to thwart Wayland outright. That doesn't concern me as much as their indifference to support it unless they see something in it for themselves. Again, I'm preaching to the choir here - and I might act the same way if I was in their shoes, I don't know. From where I sit however, I would like them to assist Wayland as much as Mir, instead of shafting one for the other either indifferently or delberately. Though if NVidia does EGL right - theoretically speaking, both Wayland and Mir ought to work ok, regardless of the protocol differences between Mir and Wayland (correct me if I'm wrong here). Again, theoretically speaking... because even various ORB implementations of Corba theoretically should work equally due to the standard but we all know how well that went

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by MartinN View Post
                              I doubt NVidia is sinister to thwart Wayland outright. That doesn't concern me as much as their indifference to support it unless they see something in it for themselves...
                              Well, how exactly have to come to the conclusion that nVidia is 'indifferent'. nVidia has been around for along time, they are a business and out to support their customers. So i think for them, jumping on XYZ effort to replace Xorg could just be wasted R&D, time and money - unless, XYZ display server is actually gaining traction and has a future ahead of it....

                              I generally, interpret what you call 'indifference' as instead been 'cautionary'.

                              Originally posted by MartinN View Post
                              Again, I'm preaching to the choir here - and I might act the same way if I was in their shoes, I don't know. From where I sit however, I would like them to assist Wayland as much as Mir, instead of shafting one for the other either indifferently or delberately. Though if NVidia does EGL right - theoretically speaking, both Wayland and Mir ought to work ok, regardless of the protocol differences between Mir and Wayland (correct me if I'm wrong here). Again, theoretically speaking... because even various ORB implementations of Corba theoretically should work equally due to the standard but we all know how well that went
                              I would expect nVidia (if/when) they implement EGL will produce a conformant EGL support in the blob. I also don't think that nVidia has any 'dog in this fight'. If their customers want/need an EGL driver and they deem this a worthwhile effort, they will probably end up doing what is good for their business. (which if both DS's have a sizable audience, supporting both via EGL (and adding extensions for Mir).

                              but again, we will see

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
                                That's my view on this as well. Sounds quite hypocritical.

                                I don't see anything that Ubuntu brought that isn't just as good on Mageia, for instance. Except for marketing, of course. And really, "I simply have zero interest in the crowd who wants to be different."? How about the decision to put the window control buttons on the left side of the window in Unity, and all the other things they did just to be different? Hypocrisy abound.
                                I do wish Mark would stop pushing the line "just as we innovated when we created Ubuntu on a six month cadence." He keeps saying this, and it keeps not being true. Mandrake/iva/Mageia/Rosa (is that the lot? :>) was on a six month release cycle for, what, six years before Ubuntu came out? And RHL/Fedora was on a six month schedule too, IIRC.

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