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Canonical Announces Mir Back-End For Mainline Mesa

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  • #31
    So far not a single reply on the mesa list...

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    • #32
      Originally posted by entropy View Post
      So far not a single reply on the mesa list...
      Cheers!!!!

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      • #33
        Originally posted by uid313 View Post
        Is this general EGL things that can be used by other stuff too?

        Or is this Mir-specific stuff that can only be used by Mir?

        I think Canonical should just drop Mir and use Wayland instead, or try to re-use as much as code as possible instead of NIH.
        Canonical usually only contributes uptream patches to support they own stuff without engaging with the community.

        Very much the same Microsoft did sending Hyper-V patches to the kernel for Azure support

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Siekacz View Post
          This is best picture of so-called "FOSS Community". Hate, jealous, hypocrisy and IBC (Invented By Canonical) syndrome. If Mir will be successful, then it is only GOOD for everyone. If not - it will fail, so who cares? Go on Canonical, show what you can do and don't look at jealous and hating guys just because you do not want to use their code. Ubuntu is your distro and if Wayland does not fulfill your expectations and forces compromises just don't use it.
          That's because "FOSS Community" is about FOSS, but also about community, which implies cooperation and sufficiently open gouvernance. A project developed behind closed doors and then PR-forced on other members may well be GPL, it is not community friendly. At all.


          It's not new, it's not canonical specific:
          - Tizen is code-dumped by Samsung, and the community has reduced its interest in it.
          - Android is open source but closed gouvernance, and the Linux community don't like it much either. Now that Google upstreams more of their changes upstream, things are getting a bit better.
          - Open-office anyone?
          and so on... you get what you ask for.

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          • #35
            And still no reply on the mesa list...

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            • #36
              Originally posted by newwen View Post
              Canonical usually only contributes uptream patches to support they own stuff without engaging with the community.

              Very much the same Microsoft did sending Hyper-V patches to the kernel for Azure support

              IIRC Microsoft was in breach of the GPL with Hyper-V otherwise we never would of seen it.

              Anyway....

              Ubuntu, much like Android is trying to be a separate entity from other Distro's/flavors of Linux based Operating Systems.... This is fine, no problems here right?

              Ubuntu can't make it's own platform like Android did atop the kernel, so they still swim in the FLOSS ocean getting free lunch along the way.... No problems here I guess most Distro's don't heavily contribute.. (considering the insane amount of them).

              Ubuntu is trying to alter existing project, spitting on others, and using M$'s favorite tactic of spreading FUD... Yeah, well, hmm.

              I wish Ubuntu well, on it's journey. They don't have the developer skill, time, nor resources to pull this off... of course I would love to eat my words and have a kick ass DS that's video accelerated EGL compliant and resource friendly, just don't think they can.

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              • #37
                So much butthurt in this and other threads...

                "They didn't hire right people", "They have no rescources", "They want to have control" (how can this be bad in any way?!). Canonical has the right people. Experience is not everything. Someimes experience screws everything, because you build thing as you used to in the past. First good decision, against so-called *experience*: they use C++(11) instead of pure C, what makes code much simplier and easier to maintain. They have much more people working on this (mor than wayland has) and they have faster development (9 months and support for 3D (over EGL), android drivers working, QMir backend, XMir...). They have enough resources to drive their own project in a way they want it to be. They don't have rescources to be huge patcher of GNOME, wayland, Qt, just to get things they want.

                Projects goal-driven are much morte efficient than community-driven. People are leaving - too many cooks spoil the broth.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by entropy View Post
                  So far not a single reply on the mesa list...
                  I pointed that out that on out Mark Shuttleworth's blog, unfortunately my comment as been flagged :\

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by ninez View Post
                    I pointed that out that on out Mark Shuttleworth's blog, unfortunately my comment as been flagged :\
                    IMHO it's great to see the mesa devs don't care to reply.

                    I know, there will be plenty of people being mad at this, saying this harms the FOSS community as it's based on misguided egoes, etc...
                    Let's face it, it's more likely that supporting Canonical after their recent foul play would harm the FOSS community around Wayland.

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                    • #40
                      Instead of creating whole new display server, they could build unity atop wayland, just like kwin, gnome-shell, e17 and others would do. Wayland devs would be more than happy cooperating with Canonical to suit wayland protocol to their needs.. Thats the point of display server to be as universal as possible. With Mir, its possible that it will only power Unity, negating the whole purpose of general display server, which every distro can easily use

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by nightmarex View Post
                        IIRC Microsoft was in breach of the GPL with Hyper-V otherwise we never would of seen it.
                        Well it's basically got to do with Azure, the customers wanted Linux not windows so Microsoft had to bend, and they had to make their virtualization solution for linux better as a result. There may have been GPL violation stuff there too but they're continuing to be developed due to azure.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by cykusz View Post
                          Instead of creating whole new display server, they could build unity atop wayland, just like kwin, gnome-shell, e17 and others would do. Wayland devs would be more than happy cooperating with Canonical to suit wayland protocol to their needs.. Thats the point of display server to be as universal as possible. With Mir, its possible that it will only power Unity, negating the whole purpose of general display server, which every distro can easily use
                          Choose: Wayland with a lot of compromises, which require additional work to make it suit your needs and Mir which suits you perfectly. First solution requires a lot more work, because of conflicts in goals. Second needs a lot of work only at the beginning, but then much less - once you write it you have exactly what you want, and you don't need to worry about others. Wayland would never suit Ubuntu, because of shared code with others. Canonical would be blocked with a lot of things, just because they are "distro-specific".

                          Mir is goal-driven, not community-driven, what makes Mir development much faster. They don't need to wait on agreement on the community side to make things work.

                          Mir will be fully reusable with other DE's. Obviously, it will be designed to work with Unity, but it doesn't mean that running KDE or whatever won't be possible. What is Wayland designed for? Nothing.
                          Last edited by Siekacz; 03-09-2013, 03:41 PM.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Siekacz View Post
                            Choose: Wayland with a lot of compromises, which require additional work to make it suit your needs and Mir which suits you perfectly.
                            What compromises, exactly, are you talking about? The only ones that Canonical pointed out were quickly discredited and no longer being claimed. What exactly does Wayland do that isn't what Canonical wants, because they can't seem to come up with anything. Maybe you have better sources?


                            Mir will be fully reusable with other DE's. Obviously, it will be designed to work with Unity, but it doesn't mean that running KDE or whatever won't be possible.
                            Will it? KDE has already said they won't support it. Is Canonical going to support a big 3rd party downstream patch to make it work? That would be surprising, given that they've never contributed a single patch to KWin. I'm not sure they've ever contributed a single patch to the entire KDE project. And that's going to be a lot of work, porting everything to a whole new display server.

                            What is Wayland designed for? Nothing.
                            Wayland was actually designed, at least, as opposed to Mir which seems to have just copied the general idea of Wayland and made a couple changes to make sure it's incompatible.

                            Canonical is really reminding me of Sun right now, only with a lot less in house expertise.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Siekacz View Post
                              Choose: Wayland with a lot of compromises, which require additional work to make it suit your needs and Mir which suits you perfectly. First solution requires a lot more work, because of conflicts in goals. Second needs a lot of work only at the beginning, but then much less - once you write it you have exactly what you want, and you don't need to worry about others. Wayland would never suit Ubuntu, because of shared code with others. Canonical would be blocked with a lot of things, just because they are "distro-specific".
                              What exactly has Ubuntu wanted in the display server that had been blocked? The did not even ask Wayland about what they wanted.

                              Originally posted by Siekacz View Post
                              Mir is goal-driven, not community-driven, what makes Mir development much faster. They don't need to wait on agreement on the community side to make things work.
                              Which will also probably result in community developed solutions not working well with Mir, shutting Ubuntu off from the rest of Linux and suffering as a result (getting them working on it will be a lot of work in the long-run). Considering how much they actually depend on the work of the community, it seems to be a bit of a narrow-minded development for Canonical.

                              Originally posted by Siekacz View Post
                              Mir will be fully reusable with other DE's. Obviously, it will be designed to work with Unity, but it doesn't mean that running KDE or whatever won't be possible. What is Wayland designed for? Nothing.
                              So wait, you say other DEs should be happy to support Mir, and yet you are saying that Wayland is bad because Ubuntu can not completely tailor itself to it? By rights Mir would be horrible to work with because it will be geared specifically for Unity and will probably not even take the suggestions of other DEs on board AT ALL.

                              What you are suggesting is to throw away (to use a political analogy) a democratic assembly of developers in favour of one assertive strong-man who will make all of the decisions for himself above others. I am sure Gnome, KDE, Xfce, LXDE, and the like will love that....

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                              • #45
                                Democracy is something that doomed a lot of OpenSource projects (democracy is good on paper, in reality it sucks and has nothing to do with freedom. Dictatorship is good or bad. Democracy always is stupid. - where is your so-called freedom? Why do you want to force Ubuntu to use the Only One Right Display Server?). Ubuntu is "meritocracy", as it was said in the past.

                                Wayland is not compatibile with Andoid drivers (Weston branch was killed some weeks ago), and for Ubuntu compatibility with Android drivers is crucial. Wayland dev's will say they don't need this and we have conflict of interests and IBC (Invented By Canonical) syndrome kicks in, because of distro-specific patches. It's a between wind and water situation. They need control over their product, Wayland takes this control away and puts it in the hands of RedHat and other anti-Canonical entities. Wayland is not ready and won't be in a year or two, and Canonical can't wait. Even if they supported Wayland they simply coudn't fast-progress, because of outside-Canonical people involved in wayland development.

                                That's why they keep on using upstart instead of systemd, which is a doing-everything-monolithic-bloatware (ironically it's against modularity of Linux).

                                PS. I am waiting MS code being thrown out of the window from kernel, because of Hyper-V-specific patches.
                                Last edited by Siekacz; 03-09-2013, 06:58 PM.

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