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Canonical Announces Mir Back-End For Mainline Mesa

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Siekacz View Post
    For me, if Canonical makes Mir better supported by drivers and gives better overall quality, these two arguments are insignificant. They've always done patching and used someone else's code. And it doesn't work. Why? Because they just couldn't make something that is consistent with design. They had to patch and apply workarounds, which stop working when someone from upstream decides to change something significant. With Wayland it could be again the same problem.
    That is a silly rationale, that you have. If Canonical actually worked with upstream and wrote code that was *worthwhile*, not poorly written hacks - they could've been upstreaming code and working with upstream developers to meet their goals. But instead, generally, Canonical just pisses on other people's work are low-contributors (if at all), yet claim credit for so much that happens in FOSS projects from with they rely on, rather than practicing what they preach; FOSS, community, etc.

    ...and while you don't see one company having control as a problem, it is. and if they are trying to create some form of vendor-lock-in, that is also problematic...

    I think MESA-developers should outright reject Canonical patches for Mir, Qt and GTK+ should do the same... If Canonical, is going to spread FUD about Wayland, be low-contributors to FOSS projects which they rely on (and yet try to monetize from them, without some significant investment into those projects) then i think those projects should ignore Canonical and force them to do everything out of tree. The upstream developers can have fun continuing to break Ubuntu's patches / compatibility time and time again - since that is essentially Canonical's own Karma.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
      Canonical is very good at marketing. They are timing their press releases so people keep talking about this new and exciting display server which is vapourware at this moment. There is a buzz as if something important were happening, and so far it isn't
      Hardly vapourware, given that this thread is about them pushing real code upstream, right now. But yeah - this is still some way off having a workable system...

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      • #18
        Originally posted by entropy View Post
        3) Canonical played seriously foul by dropping many false statements about Wayland on the project page (those have been removed lately, AFAIK). No trivial offense, if you ask me.
        4) They used exactly these statements to justify the decision not to use Wayland and go for a new display manager instead (which they developed in a private repository since mid 2012).
        5) At the same time, they never approached the Wayland/X.org devs to discuss these "potential" issues, although Wayland has been said to be the DS of choice before.
        Quite aside from the offensiveness of their misplaced criticism, it doesn't inspire a lot of confidence that the Mir developers have any clue what they're talking about. That they claim to have started their own project because of supposed faults in Wayland, which they now admit to not knowing all that much about? Doesn't bode well...

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        • #19
          So Android should die too. And kernel developers should reject all patches. Just because they are not consistent with Linux "ecosystem".

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          • #20
            Originally posted by kallisti5 View Post
            Plus.. Who knows if native Mir stuff is going to be compatible with X11 and wayland... Stuff like steam for Ubuntu may not run on anything but Ubuntu in the future
            This is what I tried to explain to some gnome fanboys. If gnome wasn't be such broken mess it would have a chance to compete with Ubuntu and Unity. There's KDE that's doing very well, but it probably doesn't have enough corporal backend to encourage blob makers to support Wayland. Gnome has to be stronger to compete and show Wayland is the way.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by ninez View Post
              That is a silly rationale, that you have. If Canonical actually worked with upstream and wrote code that was *worthwhile*, not poorly written hacks - they could've been upstreaming code and working with upstream developers to meet their goals. But instead, generally, Canonical just pisses on other people's work are low-contributors (if at all), yet claim credit for so much that happens in FOSS projects from with they rely on, rather than practicing what they preach; FOSS, community, etc.
              There's no way gnome devs would accept patches that make it usable and this is probably one of the reasons why Canonical suffers from NIH syndrome (exactly like gnome).
              Last edited by Pawlerson; 03-05-2013, 04:31 PM.

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              • #22
                People here does not understand one big thing: conflict of interests and goals. If GNOME wants some design and Canonical wants different design then they simply cannot work on the same project. The same thing with Wayland - constant patching to make it usable in Ubuntu would be a huge waste of time. Porting changes(like reusing Android drivers) to newer versions would be pretty painful and sluggish. Just like overlay scrollbars, appmenu and various other things. If you need to change core functionality then your code won't be accepted by upstream. And you end up with ugly, patched code and partly implemented design. And that's what Unity is today. If they want robust, stable, efficient and beautiful desktop, they need to "reinvent the wheel". Just like Apple did, with the difference that they are doing it OpenSource.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Pawlerson View Post
                  There's no way gnome devs would accept patches that make it usable and this is probably one of the reasons why Canonical suffers from NIH syndrome (exactly like gnome).
                  Where in my comment that you have quoted, did i specifically talk about Gnome? (i did not). I was actually talking quite broadly, about FOSS projects, in general. ~ which means everything from the linux kernel to compilers, from toolkits to various applications. ie: not some argument specific to Gnome vs. Canonical (as you are doing right now). You blaming Gnome for how Canonical goes about their business is hilarious. the fact is Canonical has ALWAYS operated this way ~ this isn't some by-product of Gnome rejecting their patches - that is just beyond moronic, dude ... :\ regardless, i am not here to defend Gnome. (if that is what you were hoping for?)...

                  the only thing i will say about Gnome vs. Canonical - is that (generally speaking) Gnome's projects are much more essential than any code Canonical puts out. (Hell, Ubuntu/Unity is built on Gnome, for fcsk sake! ...and while i do use _some_ of the gnome stack, i'm not a Gnome-Shell user, nor a hardcore gnome fanboy.

                  anyway, you are delusional to think (and vocalize) such silly notions.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by talvik View Post
                    Hopefully Qt and GTK will also refuse to mainline the changes.
                    The sooner Mir dies, the less damage it will cause.
                    Hopefully Mir will become great success and all you will eat your words!

                    You don't get it, do you? Canonical's plan for Ubuntu is to achieve MacOS-like seamless integration. Stitching together components from right and left won't cut it. They need to to be at the steering wheel, at least for the components that interface with the user. That will allow them to build deeper emotional connection with their users and thous stronger brand. It has been proven that enstablished projects have their own agendas and will not bend to Ubuntu needs. Also forking and maintaining huge patch sets lead to dead end. Mir and Unity are necessary investments if Ubuntu is to become something more than just a Gnome distro.
                    Last edited by zoomblab; 03-05-2013, 05:33 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by zoomblab View Post
                      Stitching together components from right and left won't cut it. They need to to be at the steering wheel, at least for the components that interface with the user.
                      Unfortunately, if they don't know how to drive it, they can crash the car very fast.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by zoomblab View Post
                        Hopefully Mir will become great success and all you will eat your words!
                        You are so naive. They (canonical), even didn't hired the right people, who know what they are doing, instead bunch of dickheads, who didn't studied the other alternatives first. I wish them spectacular fail!
                        Last edited by Drago; 03-05-2013, 05:54 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Link to UDS session on Mir: https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=w6HnJ3mgT9g

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by zoomblab View Post
                            It has been proven that enstablished projects have their own agendas and will not bend to Ubuntu needs.
                            I think this is the assertion that is being questioned.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                              I think this is the assertion that is being questioned.
                              Got it in one.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Siekacz View Post
                                This is best picture of so-called "FOSS Community". Hate, jealous, hypocrisy and IBC (Invented By Canonical) syndrome. If Mir will be successful, then it is only GOOD for everyone. If not - it will fail, so who cares? Go on Canonical, show what you can do and don't look at jealous and hating guys just because you do not want to use their code. Ubuntu is your distro and if Wayland does not fulfill your expectations and forces compromises just don't use it.
                                I use Ubuntu extensively personally and on work. I'm not jealous, I just care about it. I don't want it to just fail, I want it to fail and die fast. Why?
                                -Two competing new DS is going to make the situation even worse than just with Xorg
                                -They didn't engage with Wayland, and created the project secretly
                                -It's going to fragment GNU/Linux ecosystem on a base level (it's not like creating yet another desktop shell)
                                -They didn't create it for technical reasons. They want complete control and ownership of the copyright and the project.

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