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A Note To Canonical: "Don't Piss On Wayland"

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  • #31
    Technically Wayland is probably better, however that alone does not grant it success. Ubuntu is probably the only commercially viable implementation of Linux on the destkop. When was the last time that <insert favourite distro> appeared on BBC, CNN, etc?
    In the long run they will probably do with Mir and they did with Compiz( support it, launch it, and in the end revert to QT) and support Wayland. If NVIDIA launches drivers for Mir won't that benefit Wayland too (EGL). I can see the reasoning for Mir.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by NomadDemon View Post
      let them make mir, community will verify what is worth of using and whats not.

      unity was shit on first releases, now its usable and really good DE
      PA was good for me from the start
      noew lets see what they will bake for us next.
      Unity is not DE it's just desktop shell running on top of gnome instead of gnome shell.
      PA was not developed by canonical so W.T.F. u are talking about?
      U damn clueless brainwashed clowns get your facts straight before typing nonsense.

      Originally posted by 123_qwe View Post
      When was the last time that <insert favourite distro> appeared on BBC, CNN, etc?
      they did with Compiz( support it, launch it, and in the end revert to QT)
      WOW u saw lolbuntu phone on teh TV, how awesome is that? They did what with compiz? LOL this thread is so hilarious.
      Last edited by phoen1x; 03-05-2013, 10:18 AM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by phoen1x View Post
        Unity is not DE it's just desktop shell running on top of gnome instead of gnome shell.
        PA was not developed by canonical so W.T.F. u are talking about?
        U damn clueless brainwashed clowns get your facts straight before typing nonsense.


        WOW u saw lolbuntu phone on teh TV, how awesome is that? They did what with compiz? LOL this thread is so hilarious.

        Its awesome in the sense i've seen people who never heard about Linux, said it was nice, perhaps not really a successful product per se but with nice ideas.

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        • #34
          "It is bad, because it is not a collaboration but competition. It increases pressure on toolkits, on drivers, on developers, and in quality of service in the end. I hope mir dies. "

          this argument could be made about almost everything. the very fact that you have two toolkits is a huge burden on app development. also making sure your apps work across both gcc and clang is also some pain. and don't even start me on different audio backends like vlc, xine, gstreamer or mixers like jack, arts, pulseaudio, dmix, klang.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by gamerk2 View Post
            People don't get it; Its not Linux anymore. Its Ubuntu now. Its the distro the general public recognizes and uses, and thus the one which will see the most support. In short: You've lost control of development to Canonical.

            Basically, whatever they decide to do, the developers (who care about Linux) will follow. And the rest of Linux will be forced to follow Canonical's decisions at the end of the day as a result.
            That argument is about as convincing as telling us we should just make Windows apps cause it has the largest market-share. Ubuntu does have a lot of support, but it's nothing compared to Windows or even Mac, and Canonical hasn't made Linux what it is, nor do they have enough sway to pull all the developers (who care about Linux) down with them if they start acting like Apple.

            ps. I like how, instead of Ubuntu supporters, like yourself, helping us to sway Canonical's decision back to a sane (undamaging) path by actually addressing the technical merits of Mir vs. Wayland, many of you seem to be so dazzled by their marketing fluff that you're willing to stoop to these "Might makes right" arguments in support of them, even in light of their obviously damaging choice.

            Don't get me wrong, I was never a Ubuntu hater, but in this they are completely wrong, and I don't feel the need to cater to their whims just because they're the "big boy on the block".

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            • #36
              So would people support Mir if it was not Canonical the one that was developing it? It seems more like an Ubuntu hate, than a open welcome to linux to have choice and options (which I thought everyone wanted. But then again some want nvidia out of linux, Qt and KDE out of linux, etc.. etc.., so I guess many DON'T like having to choose something)

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              • #37
                Originally posted by garegin View Post
                "It is bad, because it is not a collaboration but competition. It increases pressure on toolkits, on drivers, on developers, and in quality of service in the end. I hope mir dies. "

                this argument could be made about almost everything. the very fact that you have two toolkits is a huge burden on app development. also making sure your apps work across both gcc and clang is also some pain. and don't even start me on different audio backends like vlc, xine, gstreamer or mixers like jack, arts, pulseaudio, dmix, klang.
                No. IDK how many times i'm going to have to repeat this. Linux Gaming relies on closed-source drivers, of which are made by companies only barely (int the case of AMD) giving acceptable support to Linux as it is. Fragmenting the Display Server is not the same as fragmenting other areas because those companies will most likely only give support to one successor to X11. If Mir was better than Wayland, that would be fine. But it's not, it's much worse, and there was not attempt for the 8+ months that it was secretly under development to actually communicate their concerns (most of which are flawed) to the Wayland developers.

                This fragmentation is not a good thing for Linux developers or users. Even if Mir "wins" it will still only serve to dampen the momentum of Linux Gaming since Mir is so far behind Wayland.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by boast View Post
                  So would people support Mir if it was not Canonical the one that was developing it? It seems more like an Ubuntu hate, than a open welcome to linux to have choice and options (which I thought everyone wanted. But then again some want nvidia out of linux, Qt and KDE out of linux, etc.. etc.., so I guess many DON'T like having to choose something)
                  No. Mir is far behind Wayland in terms of completeness, and most it's raised "concerns" are apparently fallacious and, more importantly, should have been made 8 months ago when the project was secretly started (giving ample opportunity for the developers to work together). Most likely no one would support it today if it wasn't made by Canonical, and hopefully no one does anyways.

                  This fragmentation is also not about "choice", please read my comment above.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by e8hffff View Post
                    Don't fool yourself. Valve has already made its money back. Linux gamer sales are three times the size of Apple Steam purchases. Linux Gamers now have a place to buy new released games.

                    Other distros are playing catchup to get Steam on their platform. They did the same with PulseAudio, and they'll probably do the same with 'Mir' so they too can have a bite of the Android device marketplace and the QML scene.
                    Cool you should pass us some of that crack you have been someking.

                    1. Linux Games Sales are not 3x higher than Apple Steam Purchases. What you are referring to is A. ONE tiny indie game that has TWICE as much Linux purchases as Mac. B. Generating just a couple of thousand dollars in Revenu which mainly go to the developer. You think the 10-15 People working at Valve for a year now get paid 10 Cents a day? http://store.steampowered.com/app/21...snr=1_7_15__13 Look at it. No wonder Mac Users don't go crazy... They already have 510 games ported to their platform...

                    2. Yeah PulseAudio was developed by Canonical. Lay of the crack pipe for once.
                    Last edited by blackout23; 03-05-2013, 11:02 AM.

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                    • #40
                      Whilst this may be the most important time to support Canonical, it may also be the most important time to boycott them. Unfortunately, if the community comes together to decry Canonical's dubious technical and ethical decisions, the software industry at large may take it as another sign of our immaturity and inability to work together in a unified way. In fact, Canonical seems the be the only person who has a problem with this, but we get the blame for being too dogmatic.

                      It's utter B.S., and I can't wait until we get past this idiocy.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by newwen View Post
                        Canonical has fucked it up this time. They're losing all the trust they still had from the FLOSS community.
                        Oh, come on. I'd like to see somebody from the FLOSS community who would look me straight in the eye and say they didn't see it coming. Canonical's been this way for years now. And everyone with an ounce of common sense jumped ship somewhere around 10.04.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by e8hffff View Post
                          Go back to your dog-cave.

                          Canonical has made Linux what it is today, a verging world success. Everything they do is professional, user friendly, zippy, big strides and or innovative, and now they are hitting the broad device market. In two years Ubuntu will be capable of being on every device, whilst other distros will be playing catchup or acting like it's all sweet in the command line world. The plain fact is some people like their computers on flames, just to repair them or to thinker. Ubuntu on the other hand wants to bring functionality and style to Linux. I'm happy for all flavours of Linux to exist, but Canonical's Ubuntu is leading the pack.

                          Cononical made what? Are you fucking high? Debian,Red Hat, Mandrake, Slackware, SUSE and the LF made linux what it is today I can't even believe what you're spewing. To be completely honest I think only Windows user's use Ubuntu, at least until they cut their teeth. We have Ubuntu to thank for... Steam and some driver updates. Thank you Ubuntu for your ONLY contributions you worthless shitbag.

                          *edit GNU also helped... =)

                          Originally posted by 123_qwe View Post
                          Technically Wayland is probably better, however that alone does not grant it success. Ubuntu is probably the only commercially viable implementation of Linux on the destkop. When was the last time that <insert favourite distro> appeared on BBC, CNN, etc?
                          In the long run they will probably do with Mir and they did with Compiz( support it, launch it, and in the end revert to QT) and support Wayland. If NVIDIA launches drivers for Mir won't that benefit Wayland too (EGL). I can see the reasoning for Mir.
                          Commercially viable? I would like to see Canonical's earnings compared to Red Hat's then.
                          Last edited by nightmarex; 03-05-2013, 12:03 PM.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by e8hffff View Post
                            Canonical has made Linux what it is today
                            I lol'd so hard I almost cried.

                            Originally posted by nightmarex View Post
                            Debian,Red Hat, Mandrake, Slackware, SUSE and the LF made linux what it is today I can't even believe what you're spewing.
                            Not to mention that Ubuntu at its core is but a Debian derivative. In fact you can thank Debian maintainers for everything sane and working that still can be found in Ubuntu.
                            Last edited by prodigy_; 03-05-2013, 11:59 AM.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by nightmarex View Post
                              Cononical made what? Are you fucking high? Debian,Red Hat, Mandrake, Slackware, SUSE and the LF made linux what it is today I can't even believe what you're spewing. To be completely honest I think only Windows user's use Ubuntu, at least until they cut their teeth. We have Ubuntu to thank for... Steam and some driver updates. Thank you Ubuntu for your ONLY contributions you worthless shitbag.
                              Canonical provided good marketing and a slick product with polish. For this, I am very grateful to them, although I don't use their stuff.

                              But of course you are right, Canonical didn't make Linux. In fact, they didn't really make anything. And now they are moving away from their core competence (polish and marketing) to something they were never really good at: infrastructure and large coding projects that require goodwill from the community. Instead of using their marketing skill to advance Linux, they are using it to advance vapourware based on questionable decisions.

                              This is how companies go under. I'm guessing that they saw there was no money in desktop Linux and decided to try something radically different. They're gone, in other words.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by e8hffff View Post
                                other distros will be playing catchup or acting like it's all sweet in the command line world
                                It IS all sweet in the command line world. Problem is, it's not user friendly.
                                So there are several solutions : you use a good GUI, aimed at advanced users, or you make a simple GUI which tries to configure things automatically, is buggy and lacks many things. This is what Ubuntu does. Compared to Ubuntu, even the brand new Fedora installer looks cool.

                                Originally posted by 123_qwe View Post
                                Technically Wayland is probably better, however that alone does not grant it success. Ubuntu is probably the only commercially viable implementation of Linux on the destkop. When was the last time that <insert favourite distro> appeared on BBC, CNN, etc?
                                In the long run they will probably do with Mir and they did with Compiz( support it, launch it, and in the end revert to QT) and support Wayland. If NVIDIA launches drivers for Mir won't that benefit Wayland too (EGL). I can see the reasoning for Mir.
                                Appearing on TV doesn't mean anything to open source philosophy. This is about making money, being a corporation ,etc. whereas the Linux I praise is about universality and knowledge. If that's what makes Ubuntu great, that's the precise reason why I hate them.
                                Last edited by omer666; 03-05-2013, 12:07 PM.

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