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Ubuntu Announces Mir, A X.Org/Wayland Replacement

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  • #61
    Am I the only one amused by the fact that there's not a single trace of Canonical on the wayland mailing list? =P
    One would assume that they'd at least try to inquire about their perceived shortcomings of the protocol to the devs..

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    • #62
      Why canonical

      WHY DID YOU HAVE TO ANNOUNCE YOUR OWN “NIH”-SYNDROME DISPLAY SERVER

      WHY NOT USE WAYLAND AND STOP FRAGMENTING THE GNU/LINUX WORLD EVEN FURTHER

      WHY

      WHY

      WHY

      WHY

      WHY

      WHY

      WHY


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      • #63
        Originally posted by Nuc!eoN View Post
        This is a shame.... can't believe it...no words I'm already curious on Høgsberg's reaction
        https://plus.google.com/100409717163...ts/jDq6BAgdpkG

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        • #64
          Uh oh.

          This isn't just a problem for them, but for anyone who wants to use Wayland instead. Since Ubuntu is the premiere Linux distro and has this compelling convergence story, along with support from Valve and an increasing amount of game developers, everyone will be under pressure to support Ubuntu's way first if it has any sort of incompatibility with other distros. Ubuntu's doing its best to become OS X, it seems- having its own software stack that others won't be able to take advantage of without sacrificing our existing standards. Of course, they're doing their best to be backwards-compatible, but they need to keep things cross-compatible for this to make sense. From a technical perspective, this makes it hard to imagine using any DE other than Unity on Mir until those developers decide to port- but GNOME and KDE are already focused on Wayland.

          Canonical might just ruin everything. I really hope this somehow works out for everyone, but so much could go wrong- why even risk it?

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Kristian Høgsberg
            This all sounds so familiar...
            LOL exactly my thoughts. I thought I was actually reading the Wayland spec page instead of Mir.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by daniels View Post
              If you ask me, it was going to happen anyway. Canonical don't have any interest in co-operating with the wider open source community;
              it's in their interest to keep everything as closed and Ubuntu-specific as possible. Just look at them and GNOME. *shrug*
              I couldn't agree more.

              Thanks for pointing me to this!

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              • #67
                Sure as hell they forked surfaceflinger and skia.

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                • #68
                  [s]Why would they do this, especially since the Linux community is totally giving all their effort, time and resources into making Wayland a top notch Xorg replacement[/s]

                  I'd say that Canonical is making a good choice on this one.
                  The native support for Qt and GTK+ toolkits would make this appealing to other Linux distributions who want to migrate away from X but sill find Wayland to be incomplete, not to mention that if this is a fork of SurfaceFlinger which is being suggested, then the support for touchscreens may be better than what Wayland can accomplish in the same time.

                  As for what some have been suggesting as to Canonical not releasing the source code to this project, it would be a bad choice for them to do something like that.
                  After all, they didn't close off Upstart.

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                  • #69
                    I have been hearing about wayland for 2 years now



                    .....



                    ............ ?

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                    • #70
                      I hope they receive some real backlash for their exploitation of the FOSS community. Canonical is only involved with FOSS for free labor, nothing more...

                      I think some projects should seriously consider refusing to add support for anything Canonical requires and force them to maintain forks on every piece of software / library that they want to use on the 'Ubuntu platform'. Don't add support for Mir, Unity Next or any of that crap, in fact - do the opposite - make your software incompatible with Ubuntu-specific stuff, beyond repair (without a ton of work on their part).

                      ..or people could start writing malicious code that only affects ubuntu-specific stuff. Since Canonical is consciously doing harm to FOSS anyway.

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                      • #71
                        Unbelievable. Remember back in 2010 when they said they would be using Wayland?

                        When that announcement came around that 'they weren't using Wayland, but they were using something else' came along, I gave them too much credit, by saying the PR person was likely just mistaking "Wayland" for the reference compositor, "Weston".

                        But they are making their own display protocol in C++, which some people on the Wayland IRC pointed out that there are lots of stubs in their BZR repo which as ModplanMan points out, the repository was created back in June 2012, and they likely had planning and decision making to do so much earlier. So far the issues they posted in the article and wiki make no sense to the Wayland developers

                        And it also seems really buggy right now, and they have some issues that give them "weird errors" according to this documentation file: https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mir-te...ad:/HACKING.md .

                        If I remember correctly, the Wayland protocol didn't hit 1.0 (AKA the point in time when there will be no more protocol breakage) until October 2012. If they had their doubts or concerns about the Wayland protocol, they had time to bring them up on the Wayland mailing lists.

                        Now they are going to have to make the toolkits support their own protocol. They mention GTK and QT, but they forgot about EFL, and SDL, and the other projects that have Wayland support already. It would be interesting to see if they actually try to merge the support upstream.

                        And now that they are creating a new Display Server protocol, to support Ubuntu applications in another distro, there is going to have to be some kind of support for Mir in their Wayland server, on top of xwayland support.

                        The fragmentation this will bring is going to be TERRIBLE.

                        What's next, they're going to announce their own KERNEL?!

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                        • #72
                          I think people are seriously overestimating Canonical's amount of pull and influence here. After all, they are just a company with an admittedly sizable but hardly dominating chunk of Linux market-share, and pretensions of being the next Android. Compared to companies like Red Hat, Intel, AMD, etc they are pretty much insignificant, with almost no upstream contributions to their credit and limited influence on other distributions other than clones such as Linux Mint. I think they are going to have a hard time getting anyone to take this seriously.

                          It simply does not have that much of a leg to stand on. Whatever Red Hat backs is going to be the choice of the enterprise and embedded markets, as Red Hat has a strong profitable base and a whole community of reliable customers behind them, and you can bet that Red Hat is not going to want Canonical to dominate the graphics stack and will instead go with the upstream solution where they already have great influence. That means no matter what Wayland is far from dead, and if AMD and Nvidia want to be taken seriously they will have to support at least both Wayland and Mir (AMD especially since Catalyst is primarily for 3D workstations).

                          The main trouble spot is going to be the incompatibilities of duelling implementations. Valve's strong endorsement of Ubuntu is problematic here, although I have found Valve to be problematic from the very beginning.

                          Still, we did not need this mess. Whatever happens Canonical has thrown a sizable wrench into what was going to be a fairly smooth transition.

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                          • #73
                            Canonical, I am dissapoint

                            It's clear that they haven't really considered using Wayland. Their anti-Wayland arguments are bogus. What they don't like about Wayland is that it's not their project - just like with upstart/systemd. On some blog, a dev said "developed by Ubuntu, for Ubuntu". Canonical never contributes or takes part in the community, although they take all they can from it and use "community" as a buzzword all the time. What really annoys me this time is that they're screwing with all the other people in the FLOSS community who are trying to switch to Wayland.
                            I'm really dissapointed with Canonical.
                            Last edited by z0id; 03-04-2013, 06:01 PM.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by ninez View Post
                              I hope they receive some real backlash for their exploitation of the FOSS community. Canonical is only involved with FOSS for free labor, nothing more...

                              I think some projects should seriously consider refusing to add support for anything Canonical requires and force them to maintain forks on every piece of software / library that they want to use on the 'Ubuntu platform'. Don't add support for Mir, Unity Next or any of that crap, in fact - do the opposite - make your software incompatible with Ubuntu-specific stuff, beyond repair (without a ton of work on their part).

                              ..or people could start writing malicious code that only affects ubuntu-specific stuff. Since Canonical is consciously doing harm to FOSS anyway.
                              So just how the open source community goes out of its way to make everything incompatible with Android?

                              ...or does it?

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by daniels View Post
                                It can, and we looked into what it'd take at some point. The EGL integration side of it isn't actually that difficult, it's just the glue between the Android and the standard GNU/Linux components which is hairy.
                                Hairy from a technical POV or something else. And if its the technical stuff this means that Canonical will have to go through it to get it to work right?

                                Also on the red hat/wayland comments. Are there any WL contributors from red hat?



                                Also (from Hoegsbergs G+):
                                Lennart Poettering: I am sure "Mir" is going to be a project with a fantastic future, just like bazaar, or Upstart, or Project Harmony before it.
                                LOLZZZZ

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