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Intel Mesa Gives Problems With KDE's KWin, Again

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  • #61
    Originally posted by mat69 View Post
    What kind of racist remark are you talking of?

    Imho his mail is indeed way too long and might apear arrogant instead of solution oriented. I doubt that devs who themselves have to cope with rare spare time they can invest in their projects are willing to read long rants in this regard.
    "We Germans are direct and speak the truth" etc. Such remarks have no place in (what should be) a technical discussion.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by BlackStar View Post
      "We Germans are direct and speak the truth" etc. Such remarks have no place in (what should be) a technical discussion.
      Well but it is not racism per se. Though the "speak the truth" is in fact crap.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by bridgman View Post
        This issue comes up every few months. The core problem here is that the KDE devs were writing new code which used OpenGL features that were just being implemented in the open drivers. Nothing wrong with that in principle but it requires fairly close communication between app and driver developers so everyone understands what should and should not work.
        Except that isn't what happened. The features that broke had been working for several releases by that point. They hadn't been significantly changed.

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        • #64
          Using Mesa renderer string for determining features is the same stupid thing as using UserAgent string in browsers. Just test functionality and performance experimentally at runtime if needed.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by baryluk View Post
            Using Mesa renderer string for determining features is the same stupid thing as using UserAgent string in browsers. Just test functionality and performance experimentally at runtime if needed.
            The functionality tests caused the system to crash. That's why drivers were blacklisted -- even testing functionality and performance caused them to crash.

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            • #66
              isn't it great? They do a stupid change (idiotic even) and when people (rightfully) complain, they shut them down.

              And people are surprised that there aren't more mesa/driver devs.

              Btw, which users are more important than the composite using window managers?
              Games? Surely not - since opensource drivers, especially intel's suck way to much for that. CAD? Don't try to be funny. There is a reason workstation drivers (from amd and nvidia) are seldomly updated and certified to run workstation applications.
              So what is left - xmms ogl analyzer plugin?

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              • #67
                Originally posted by energyman View Post
                isn't it great? They do a stupid change (idiotic even) and when people (rightfully) complain, they shut them down.

                And people are surprised that there aren't more mesa/driver devs.

                Btw, which users are more important than the composite using window managers?
                Games? Surely not - since opensource drivers, especially intel's suck way to much for that. CAD? Don't try to be funny. There is a reason workstation drivers (from amd and nvidia) are seldomly updated and certified to run workstation applications.
                So what is left - xmms ogl analyzer plugin?
                It seems they care only what Red Hat does, my friend. Some of them were saying they're testing drivers to work with gnome shell well. Since gnome shell sucks and even Ubuntu won't ship it, it doesn't even matter if OS drivers works well with it or not. Others have to suffer, because of idiocy.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by mat69 View Post
                  Well but it is not racism per se. Though the "speak the truth" is in fact crap.
                  Positive racism is still racism.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by BlackStar View Post
                    Plus, his racist remark was very ill-conceived.

                    Thumbs up for spotting it.


                    Originally posted by energyman
                    Btw, which users are more important than the composite using window managers?
                    Games? Surely not - since opensource drivers, especially intel's suck way to much for that. CAD? Don't try to be funny. There is a reason workstation drivers (from amd and nvidia) are seldomly updated and certified to run workstation applications.
                    So what is left - xmms ogl analyzer plugin?
                    If I look at my use case, window managers are pretty low down the list of stuff that needs care from mesa, because I don't use a composite desktop. Though to be fair, this is a chicken and egg problem, I would probably use kwin's compositor if it performed well enough with my hardware/drivers...But yeah, I asked myself the same question, who are the most important users of mesa?

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by kraftman View Post
                      It seems they care only what Red Hat does, my friend. Some of them were saying they're testing drivers to work with gnome shell well. Since gnome shell sucks and even Ubuntu won't ship it, it doesn't even matter if OS drivers works well with it or not. Others have to suffer, because of idiocy.
                      Are you serious? They are perfectly willing to test Gnome but flat-out refuse to test KDE? So they work hard to make sure Firefox works, work hard to make sure Gnome works, but knowingly break KDE?

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by TheBlackCat View Post
                        Are you serious? They are perfectly willing to test Gnome but flat-out refuse to test KDE? So they work hard to make sure Firefox works, work hard to make sure Gnome works, but knowingly break KDE?
                        This response suggests they simply don't care about KDE. I didn't say someone broke kwin intentionally, but it happened just before the release and this is stupid. Last time there were also problems with mesa, kwin and Kubuntu.

                        http://lists.freedesktop.org/archive...il/006872.html

                        "Mesa is our most important upstream and KWin (together with Compiz and Mutter) are your most important downstreams." is not even close to be true. They're very important, but they're not even close to be the most important. Reality is that no one is getting paid to make sure KWin works on latest Mesa3D and that by itself makes it pretty insignificant. In fact there's very few people running KDE as their main DE at all here.
                        It seems they mainly care about gnome. I believed KDE and Gnome are treated equally, but now I see this is not true.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by kraftman View Post
                          It seems they mainly care about gnome. I believed KDE and Gnome are treated equally, but now I see this is not true.
                          Developer time doesn't come from heaven. If some developer is *paid* to make sure that gnome works he will test and make sure gnome works. If nobody cares about kde, nobody will notice breakages. Thats how real life works for ages now.

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                          • #73
                            You gotta love the sense of entitlement within the KDE community.

                            The sole purpose of upstream is to cater to KDE and its Kitsch Window Manager. Every upstream commit, even if it consists only of white space fixes, must be tested to make sure it does not negatively affect KDE/KWin in any way. Those who do not abide or simply forget will have to face the wrath of angry KDE bloggers and KDE foot soldiers spewing their hate on various forums.

                            Reality check: In spite of what you may think, the world does not revolve around KDE. No really.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by BlackStar View Post
                              Positive racism is still racism.
                              Then you are ignoring different cultures and thus act kinda ignorant yourself...
                              To asume that every person, every culture is equal is rather naive. Btw. the term equal does not value, people do.

                              @Important mesa users
                              Compositing is not really important, you can use most WM quite good without compositing. Actually Gnome 3.0 is the first major system to force compositing and is not really doing that ("old" mode).
                              So personally I can understand that compositing is not highest on the dev's list. If compositing does not work you can still use most desktops around.

                              @monraaf bla bla bla ... try better with flaming, you are too obvious and thus unfunny.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by monraaf View Post
                                You gotta love the sense of entitlement within the KDE community.

                                The sole purpose of upstream is to cater to KDE and its Kitsch Window Manager. Every upstream commit, even if it consists only of white space fixes, must be tested to make sure it does not negatively affect KDE/KWin in any way. Those who do not abide or simply forget will have to face the wrath of angry KDE bloggers and KDE foot soldiers spewing their hate on various forums.

                                Reality check: In spite of what you may think, the world does not revolve around KDE. No really.
                                That's funny. It seems world does revolve around gnome this times. I wouldn't say Kitch Window Manager, because if Kwin is a 'Kitch' then Mutter's a grandma. If this will be normal ecosystem everyone would make sure changes doesn't brake user space just before release of important distribution. KDE's the one of the most popular DEs (if not the most popular) after all. Driver breakages won't help gnome shell in any way.

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