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Reality check - AMD needs to get their priorities right.

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  • Reality check - AMD needs to get their priorities right.

    I'm quite bemused by all these people complaining that they can't get Compiz working. Some of us do not have usable video playback or working suspend/resume or the fglrx driver just doesn't work at all.

    It infuriates me when people complain about daft wobbly windows when a lot of users cannot even use their graphics cards for simple tasks (or indeed at all).

    AMD/ATI needs to get its priorities right and fix the following:

    1. Get the driver to work on ALL systems, X86 or X86-64 and for all GPUs it claims to 'support'.
    2. Fix suspend/resume on laptops
    3. Fix Xv output and general video playback to stop video TEARING or the xserver crashing.
    4. General games support needs to be improved

    It is my opinion that these should take precedence over AIGLX.

    What does everyone else think? Feel free to add to the list of issues you believe are more important that AIGLX.
    Last edited by maggot_brain; 10-25-2007, 08:35 AM. Reason: forgot a few things and typo

  • #2
    1. Fix the damn scrolling slow down as it is really irritating to see a super fast computer acts like a dog when browsing a webpage!

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    • #3
      Your right: as it stands no driver works well for my x1950 AGP. 8.40.x and earlier treat my card as PCIE, video and most 3D apps run very slowly. Only way to get it to work at all is with AGP apeture set to 256MB.

      8.42.3 finally treats my card as AGP but I get an error in my Xorg.0.log and video and all 3D apps run even slower.

      Windows is not much better, 7.8 Catalyst were causing crashes and it wasn't till I installed 7.9 that didn't work at all that I found out that there was a "Known Issue" with my card in the Release Notes, grr. You tell them your card when you download so you'd think there could be a warning!

      Get the basics right on all supported cards ATI!

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      • #4
        1. Make the install, update and overwrite process as simple and predictable as Windows. Double-click on binary, progress bar, done.

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        • #5
          I can't think how some people can be amused at this driver release. They actually worsened what it was already worse.

          Terminal scrolling now became slow and unworkable with, AIGLX support is there on its early stage and in fact it still misses supporting many visual modes (not counting the fact with Compiz still many people can't make it work or find it slow or, in some case, are able to get it partially working with third party hacks).

          Xv output is still indecent and suspend/resume doesn't work.

          For people like me using Fedora 7, they even broke the packaging scripts for x86_64 systems.

          I can't obviously trash the videocard as that would imply trashing the whole notebook, and at the time I have no intention to waste money for ATI's fault. I will keep using Windows where their driver runs just fine but, in the future, be the driver improved or not, I will avoid as rape ATI.

          Like already someone else said, NVIDIA did it better and since almost 1 year. They are terribly late and instead of rushing a mature driver development they keep coming up with this sort of driver aborts that work only with some empirical workarounds.

          I won't wait anymore for a driver release like this crap. I'd rather look at the Avivo project how it is going, you can bet they will do a better job than those incompetents at ATI.

          Sorry for being harsh but the topic called reality: there you go...
          Last edited by lionheart; 10-25-2007, 10:03 AM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by maggot_brain View Post
            I'm quite bemused by all these people complaining that they can't get Compiz working. Some of us do not have usable video playback or working suspend/resume or the fglrx driver just doesn't work at all.

            It infuriates me when people complain about daft wobbly windows when a lot of users cannot even use their graphics cards for simple tasks (or indeed at all).

            AMD/ATI needs to get its priorities right and fix the following:

            1. Get the driver to work on ALL systems, X86 or X86-64 and for all GPUs it claims to 'support'.
            2. Fix suspend/resume on laptops
            3. Fix Xv output and general video playback to stop video TEARING or the xserver crashing.
            4. General games support needs to be improved

            It is my opinion that these should take precedence over AIGLX.

            What does everyone else think? Feel free to add to the list of issues you believe are more important that AIGLX.
            I agree whole-heartedly. AIGLX is nice; but it's not nearly as important as those 4 things you mention. I would also add proper-dual head support. I used to have it perfect back with fc6 & 8.whatever was out then; I even had it right in f7 for awhile. But then all of a sudden their dual-head support fell apart.


            And I am personally thrilled about how AMD is opening up their driver development process; as that is the best method of all as it removes dependency on the fglrx blob. On principle and given time, it will be better than anything NVIDIA can offer; unless of course they open up their sources too.
            Last edited by koolmanoncampus; 10-25-2007, 11:53 AM.

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            • #7
              Their attitude of opening up spec is somehow questionable

              It's been a month and half since they released 2 2D specs. Are they ever gonna release 3D spec so open source driver developers can work on getting OpenGL to work at all? If yes, how long do we/they have to wait?

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              • #8
                The problem is really this: concept of time. We are getting bug fixes at the rate of 1 per month and for each new release 3 or 4 new ones get introduced.

                This is a clear evidence of lack of expertise that ATI/AMD management put on Linux driver development. I'm quite surprised how Michael follows the driver development so enthusiastically in this board. Though he doesn't deserve to get blamed as the problem comes from a much higher level and he's just trying to do his best. He's probably neither on ATI/AMD's payroll and do this just for fun.

                I think many appreciate his work but if my suggestion can be worth something, there are so many users well right pissed off with ATI that have no enthusiasm to spend on alpha quality driver releases (neither alpha quality I'd say, given the continous bugs not being fixed even after 1 month).

                If this will be the normal long-term schedule, I expect disastrous drivers for the future. I'm on the way of getting a laptop with Intel X3100 and selling the old one losing 50% of the value. Money wasted but open drivers for the future and no guaranteed ATI hassle.
                Last edited by lionheart; 10-25-2007, 12:36 PM.

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                • #9
                  AIGLX may work, but some of us still can't use it as Compiz/Compiz Fusion/Beryl doesn't start at certain cards (seems to be problem with Radeon 9600XT).

                  ATI/AMD needs to invest money in Linux development, that's the only single problem - more developers, more resources, less hype.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by FunkyRider View Post
                    Their attitude of opening up spec is somehow questionable

                    It's been a month and half since they released 2 2D specs. Are they ever gonna release 3D spec so open source driver developers can work on getting OpenGL to work at all? If yes, how long do we/they have to wait?

                    I imagine it's legal that's holding them up. Lots of companies are afraid of losing IP. Even if that is a valid argument from legal, what would lose by opening up their sources is balanced by the loss of customers if they don't.

                    I was talking to an AMD rep a few months ago, and they said they had been working on what they released already for like a year because of legal. So I imagine its just a matter of time until the 3d specs come out. Unless legal really drag themselves on it. But the fact is having a binary closed-source driver for linux is just dumb. Things change so fast; it pays to be able to have it updated by the linux community themselves.

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                    • #11
                      it was the linux users that asked for this aiglx support.i think that it could be written better than it is now, but you all wanted it and i've seen a lot of threads and posts on forums of people who were asking loud for aiglx. so ati has given you aiglx.
                      the problem is that a board that normally has 300-500fps like mine with 8.40 even if it gets 1800 fps after the update cannot run smoothly compiz or beryl. consider that ati has given you what i call an experimental driver: they've pushed the speed and given you aiglx that you all were asking for but it is in some way unstable. i think that in the next months this driver would get more and more stable, will fix some issues and will have some minor speed improvements. when the radeonhd would have reached a good point (of what i can see it will implement full 2d support before the end of the year, and hopefully it would be ready by christmass when kde4 gets out) ati would not fully implement the cards that now have the specs released and will concentrate on boosting at best the older boards which will likely not have released the specs (as my x200m) and on implementing the drivers for the future cpu/gpu integrated boards leaving the dedicated boards drivers to the community. but for that to happen we will still need to wait about 6-8 months in my opinion. this is just a supposition.
                      and don't think that you can run compiz/beryl at a good speed whitout at least an r400 or better card. now compiz and compiz-fusion are more and more resource vampires and using them on r300 or older series would not work very well.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by givemesugarr View Post
                        it was the linux users that asked for this aiglx support.i think that it could be written better than it is now, but you all wanted it and i've seen a lot of threads and posts on forums of people who were asking loud for aiglx. so ati has given you aiglx.
                        I never wanted it - I wanted a driver that would support my X1950 in a stable and performant fashion. I resent being lumped in with people who think that flash is more important than functionality.

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                        • #13
                          Re: AMD Priorities

                          Personally I feel AMD is on the right track. They want to do the Linux community right. But it is a process. People have been wanting AIGLX for ever and AMD delivered. Yet people rather look at the bugs than the achievement that the 8.41 and 8.42 releases are. Of course there will be bugs. There will always be bugs. We are only two releases into the new OpenGL codebase and one release into the age of AIGLX for AMD. The fact that the drivers even somewhat work is a feat in its self. Unfortunately AMD is in a hole when it comes to Linux; the market is significantly smaller than the Windows market. Therefore a significant portion of their profits are not from Linux users but rather Windows users. Therefore they cannot dedicate ideal resources to the development of a Linux driver, but at least they try and are delivering progress each month either introducing new features or fixing some bugs.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Shae View Post
                            Yet people rather look at the bugs than the achievement that the 8.41 and 8.42 releases are.
                            Because ATI claims not to release beta drivers.

                            Of course there will be bugs. There will always be bugs. We are only two releases into the new OpenGL codebase and one release into the age of AIGLX for AMD. The fact that the drivers even somewhat work is a feat in its self.
                            Indeed, they're in what you might call a beta state. Except that ATI doesn't release beta drivers.

                            Unfortunately AMD is in a hole when it comes to Linux; the market is significantly smaller than the Windows market. Therefore a significant portion of their profits are not from Linux users but rather Windows users. Therefore they cannot dedicate ideal resources to the development of a Linux driver, but at least they try and are delivering progress each month either introducing new features or fixing some bugs.
                            That's lovely, except that (until the 8x series), nVidia managed to produce Linux drivers which were consistently as good as their Windows drivers, despite the same economic situation applying. It seems, therefore, that there is a flaw in your argument - perhaps it is tied to the silly monthly release schedule which ATI insist on?

                            If ATI had released 8.42.3 as a "beta" release, then people would have been understanding about the prevalence of bugs. As it is, they insist that all their official releases are non-beta, and thus they are rightly taken to task for the imperfections (some of them considerable) in the implementation.

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                            • #15
                              The stutters and lags are not because of AIGLX but because of their new OGL code base! I tries use both AIGLX and xserver-xgl in 8.42 and they both lags like hell. Switching back to 8.40 instantly solves the problem, silky smooth scroll and video playback (for gods sake forget about the Xv tearing for now). And this reminds me when I was trying 8.41 and it stuttered heavily as well. What they need to do is to correct this FUNDAMENTAL mistake in the driver that somehow makes things stutter, not to blame on users who wanted AIGLX!

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