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  • #76
    Originally posted by kraftman View Post
    This thread looks funny after Valve announcement. It seems Linux is the BEST system for gaming. Even with much lesser optimization time and Unity not suspending compositions L4D2 runs faster than on windows! Windoze is just a crap.
    note that i have respect for what you know and do, but you should know that you cant compare a Intel Core i7 3930K and Nvidia 680 windows vs heavily modified linux and call it a win

    on my CPU/RAM limited rig, where l4d2 runs at 60fps on windows, there would be a huuuge penalty from that 50% of openGL calling time spent translating it(even thou my monster grafics card can swallow allot more), wouldn't it

    ignoring the "my game runs bad in wine"(what is true mostly) and "there is no that program on linux"(what mostly isn't true), fact is humans are creatures of habit and do not want to learn anything else

    another i feel smaller thing is that even thou linux IS easier to install properly(dont know win7) there is a couple problems that can happen;
    example a b43 broadcom wireless that i installed for a friend on fedora: i had to go to him and install it myself, how would i explain to him "you goto get the win drivers and this program, then extract the drivers, run the program on them, and copy THAT file as root to..."(and hes bad at english)
    i know he'd fck up somewhere and i cant vnc to the comp since it has no wireless
    would be more user friendly to have a extra repository for all that crap, then i can tell him "go to that site, click there, wait, run synaptic, install that"(should be legal to make a repo with just firmware, or add the firmware directly to like RPM fusion instead of just adding bwcutter)

    since you replied to this sh***y tread(thx spammers and fangirls), il ask:

    why does compiz and such opengl(?) desktop acceleration have such penalties ?
    i got 2 3D games here and one gets some 10fps less with compiz, other one dosent (dont remember which is which so i wont name them)

    from what i know batching opengl calls gets you performance since its all sent in one blast, but should the few tiny DE calls really disrupt the flow so much that i get 15% less fps ? (yes 10fps is 15% on my comp)

    why is there a penalty anyway, shouldn't the desktop go to sleep when a DRI application goes "fullscreen"(there is no fullscreen in X afaik) ?

    thats a couple questions i got from looking at Michaels charts here, and didnt find a clear "why is that" anywhere
    (not that i care much since i tuned my comp when i was bored a long time ago, but objectively "shud that be there anyway")

    PS its not written if they used unity llvm or if they tuned other stuff, however it is written that they worked with nvidia and such (maybe it is written and im just blind, happens)

    PPS no disrespect but open source radeon drivers are, in most cases, allot slower then closed source; closed source radeon drivers are hard to install(especially on dual grafics laptops(where even lspci can lie)) and intel is... not there yet hardware wise

    so that leaves nvidia as a best expirience on linux (maybe some tried and tested amd cards on desktops can match, but realisticly theres alot more complaints about amd then nvidia)


    sry for the lenght of the post(if you'l read it anyway), i made good coffe today

    one more thing to ask(as a noob in all this, and since you aint);
    how much do drivers have to do with latencies ?

    trying nouveau i got the feeling xonotic is more responsive, allthou blocky
    that got me thinking that there's a scheduler in "the blob" that queues calls to some limit

    if it were true id switch to nouveau as latency is important in such a fast paced game

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by gens View Post
      why does compiz and such opengl(?) desktop acceleration have such penalties ?
      i got 2 3D games here and one gets some 10fps less with compiz, other one dosent (dont remember which is which so i wont name them)

      from what i know batching opengl calls gets you performance since its all sent in one blast, but should the few tiny DE calls really disrupt the flow so much that i get 15% less fps ? (yes 10fps is 15% on my comp)
      There are several benchmarks for compositing on phoronix and they mostly show that the proprietary nvidia driver suffers much from compositing, fglrx hardly does and radeon sometimes even benefits.

      Example from last year:
      http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...011_hits&num=2

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by gens View Post
        note that i have respect for what you know and do, but you should know that you cant compare a Intel Core i7 3930K and Nvidia 680 windows vs heavily modified linux and call it a win
        Since some time I do nothing. What I want is just to have fair comparisons. When comes to Valve there's Ubuntu (which is slower in 3D graphic compared to distributions which doesn't use compiz). Valve only modified L4D2 and helped with Ubuntu's graphic drivers. Canonical fixed few things in Unity or compiz.

        why does compiz and such opengl(?) desktop acceleration have such penalties ?
        i got 2 3D games here and one gets some 10fps less with compiz, other one dosent (dont remember which is which so i wont name them)

        from what i know batching opengl calls gets you performance since its all sent in one blast, but should the few tiny DE calls really disrupt the flow so much that i get 15% less fps ? (yes 10fps is 15% on my comp)

        why is there a penalty anyway, shouldn't the desktop go to sleep when a DRI application goes "fullscreen"(there is no fullscreen in X afaik) ?
        The answer is suspend compositions. In KDE it's K - System settings - Desktop effects - advanced - "suspend desktop effects for fullscreen windows or something like that"*. You can do the same in Ubuntu, but afaik it's broken with some drivers. If you want to make some valid comparison between Linux and Windows I recommend to choose KDE or XFCE based distribution. Ubuntu is the most popular one, but some things have still to be fixed out there. Use proprietary drivers of course.

        * - you can also try disabling vsync

        Comment


        • #79
          Mutter, which GNOME Shell uses, suspends the compositor when a full screen game is running. KWin and the Xfce compositor can do the same, and this functionality is even togglable, as Kraftman noted. It is a bit unfair to paint all compositors with the same brush when the problem really is mostly with Compiz and Unity.

          Comment


          • #80
            This just in: OP is a moron.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by kraftman View Post
              Since some time I do nothing. What I want is just to have fair comparisons. When comes to Valve there's Ubuntu (which is slower in 3D graphic compared to distributions which doesn't use compiz). Valve only modified L4D2 and helped with Ubuntu's graphic drivers. Canonical fixed few things in Unity or compiz.
              im doing math so writing nonsence on forums is a good way to stay sane

              so... all we need to make linux desktop a success is Valve

              on one side thats great, amazing even for linux as we all know most new PC's are sold for new games
              as an office OS linux has been good for years now, but office people like familiarity as it increases productivity and such
              (printing i read can be a problem there)

              another most common use (if not THE most common use) for a PC is internet, and everybody knows firefox
              only problem there is the filesystem is different, again unfamiliar
              but using home folder instead of desktop(you can use desktop too ofc, but its confusing since it is in the home folder) is plausible

              bit about linux and valve in the 3'rd question:
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=BW5tn7NoRqo

              and about steam(and dim witted gamers):
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REC4x...layer_embedded

              i like valve for what they done, and people should be judged for what they do, but i have to agree with John that Valve is a company and a company rarely(if at all) does something for nothing

              valve has a long(relativly ofc) history of being open, fair and doing quality work
              i hope they stay that way and not stray away

              personally i dont care about linux user friendlyness and popularity since i like playing with the system when bored
              id like everyone to use it cuz debuging simple problems (like networking) is easier

              i also think linux desktop has come a long way since the last time i cared; open office(now libre office) has become stable and allot less resource hungry, DE's have become GUI'sh enough for people that dont want to/are too lazy to tipe(that means all, at least here in the non-english world) to use and configure

              but i dont like what ubuntu/fedora/etc are doing in going for touch friendly DE's, for me they(the DE's) are just unnecessary (i like the "press a button and all your windows are shown" thou)(then again maybe im just oldschool and dont like the future)

              i dont see why a GUI would use 300-400MB and 10% of my cpu just to show me some windows
              xfce does it with 80MB, almost no cpu time and has everything you need. Why isnt that default
              enlightenment uses even less and is customizable, even modular, so you can make it look/feel/act the way you want; you can even make some reasonable default and ship it with your distro

              a problem i seen from a friend i put fedora(xfce ofc) on he's lap is that program launchers confuse non-console people
              he's used to just right clicking on an exe->make shortcut on desktop
              while putting a command line in a launcher is allot more flexible, is it that hard to generate a launcher by right clicking an executable
              theres probably allot of small things like that, that are confusing for people that dont want to type to make things done
              but that are small problems in comparison to grafic drivers, wireless firmware and ofc "my game/program dosent work out of the box"

              on the plus side, installing things thru synaptic and such is great and more user friendly then windows(dont know about OSX)
              using linux with a reasonable DE(once all is set up) is more fluid then windows and has less if not none of those little annoying bugs like misbehaving windows, waiting for things to refresh to click them etc..
              also searching half an hour where to turn off the firewall or something else (i know security bla bla, but i and everybody i know turn it off cuz its annoying and makes false positives)
              linux also generally performs better(most games, as we all know, don't thou)

              did i mention anti-virus software?
              its an old topic, and i didnt use it with windows (i used brain to not click on weird things, worked almost always) but you can call it almost a standard on a windows PC×
              it comes installed with a lot of commercial PC's
              its always on, it uses memory cpu and disk
              and it makes me wonder if any windows benchmarks are done with an aggressive antivirus running in the background

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Tweenk View Post
                Let's say there are N operating systems and M hardware manufacturers.

                You want each of M manufacturers to write a driver for N systems. For this, each of the M manufacturers must hire at least N specialist programmers (let's assume it's unlikely for a programmer to be proficient in dirver development on two systems simultaneously). In practice, they often hire non-specialists who write crappy drivers, or do not supply drivers for some of the N systems at all. Furthermore, because each manufacturer works in isolation, they cannot reuse code between similar devices from different manufacturers.

                If the each of the M hardware manufacturers instead releases documentation on what their damn hardware actually does, any competent programmer can write the driver for any of the N systems. This means that the operating system vendor or a group of volunteers can write the drivers for all M devices, exploiting all similarities between them to reduce the amount of work that needs to be done.

                Since typically M is much higher than N, in your scenario we require many more programmers - which are a scarce resource - to produce the same number of lower quality drivers.
                [H]ard forums time is it?

                dude the development argument has been lost a long time ago FLOSS is more secure and better written overall and for you to say that ....wait.... what exactly are you saying , you've actually translated shit into keyboard strokes - 10/10

                revdep-rebuild fixes all for me anyway being an elite gentoo-ist (yawn)

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by gens View Post
                  a problem i seen from a friend i put fedora(xfce ofc) on he's lap is that program launchers confuse non-console people
                  he's used to just right clicking on an exe->make shortcut on desktop
                  while putting a command line in a launcher is allot more flexible, is it that hard to generate a launcher by right clicking an executable
                  theres probably allot of small things like that, that are confusing for people that dont want to type to make things done
                  but that are small problems in comparison to grafic drivers, wireless firmware and ofc "my game/program dosent work out of the box"
                  Which program? The one installed by the distribution or a custom one from a third parties? "Make shortcut on desktop equivalent is make link. Also, a middle-click on that executable allows a creation of shortcut.
                  For graphical drivers, as pointed out, Microsoft Windows system heavily relied on hardware manufacturers drivers. A plain Windows systems will not properly run a hardware accelerated videogames (hence the minimum requirement that you see on box or website), it is hardly out-of-box. Understand that most works done to optimize Windows systems that run desktop/laptops are done by vendors themselves, not Microsoft. Same for other devices including wireless.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by finalzone View Post
                    Which program? The one installed by the distribution or a custom one from a third parties? "Make shortcut on desktop equivalent is make link. Also, a middle-click on that executable allows a creation of shortcut.
                    For graphical drivers, as pointed out, Microsoft Windows system heavily relied on hardware manufacturers drivers. A plain Windows systems will not properly run a hardware accelerated videogames (hence the minimum requirement that you see on box or website), it is hardly out-of-box. Understand that most works done to optimize Windows systems that run desktop/laptops are done by vendors themselves, not Microsoft. Same for other devices including wireless.
                    didnt know about middle clicking

                    i put him launchers for a wine game and xchat

                    windows have shipped before with grafics drivers that worked, although not as good as the right ones, good enough for most games

                    and the friend knows how to install anything on windows, we been putting together computers for years
                    but compiling stuff and "sudo mv" it is a bit out of hes league

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by gens View Post
                      didnt know about middle clicking

                      i put him launchers for a wine game and xchat

                      windows have shipped before with grafics drivers that worked, although not as good as the right ones, good enough for most games

                      and the friend knows how to install anything on windows, we been putting together computers for years
                      but compiling stuff and "sudo mv" it is a bit out of hes league
                      funny how a thread goes from abi breakage and api changes to sudo mv is too much brainpower

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by D0pamine View Post
                        funny how a thread goes from abi breakage and api changes to sudo mv is too much brainpower
                        funny i thought this thread is about user friendliness and well, gaming on linux

                        for you it may not be too much brainpower to move a file to somewhere you dont have permission to write to
                        but for people that have never seen a console, that dont know about file permissions, that dont know that mv is short for move, that dont even speak english etc...

                        maybe you have too much dopamine in your brain, and its making you link together things that have no relationship to other things
                        on the other hand it could make you good at modern art, try that instead of forums

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by gens View Post
                          funny i thought this thread is about user friendliness and well, gaming on linux

                          for you it may not be too much brainpower to move a file to somewhere you dont have permission to write to
                          but for people that have never seen a console, that dont know about file permissions, that dont know that mv is short for move, that dont even speak english etc...

                          maybe you have too much dopamine in your brain, and its making you link together things that have no relationship to other things
                          on the other hand it could make you good at modern art, try that instead of forums

                          I don't know what you want me or the community to do about mental shortcomings - the CLI is massively useful and if its all too technical for you or your friend you could use something like mint mate which even has a gui for mounting iso images ( really? mount -o loop /path/to/iso /path/to/mount/point ) i digress ... very modern art i know

                          for me it it simple.. emerge <game> or <package>

                          add user(s) to games group and play away

                          and for games outside the portage tree follow instructions usually found in README - it'll usually install to ~/.local/share for eg

                          if its a windows like operating system you're after then use windows - if its freedom you're after then use something free

                          if you wish to learn a little bit of bash then i would suggest here http://mywiki.wooledge.org/BashGuide or google even if not move along - nothing to see here!

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by D0pamine View Post
                            I don't know what you want me or the community to do about mental shortcomings - the CLI is massively useful and if its all too technical for you or your friend you could use something like mint mate which even has a gui for mounting iso images ( really? mount -o loop /path/to/iso /path/to/mount/point ) i digress ... very modern art i know

                            for me it it simple.. emerge <game> or <package>

                            add user(s) to games group and play away

                            and for games outside the portage tree follow instructions usually found in README - it'll usually install to ~/.local/share for eg

                            if its a windows like operating system you're after then use windows - if its freedom you're after then use something free

                            if you wish to learn a little bit of bash then i would suggest here http://mywiki.wooledge.org/BashGuide or google even if not move along - nothing to see here!
                            let me see you mount a .bin image like that

                            modern ?
                            basics of computing have been set in the times of valves and such (and im not talking about the company, nor a faucet)

                            emerging things ?
                            gentoo makes everyone feel like a hax0r to the point they ignore common sense

                            by far the best bash tutorial i found was http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/li...x.html#101-103
                            was another by some guy, i dont remember
                            and ksh is the "serious" shell (ask any true unix zealot)

                            dont take this the wrong way as i see you take most things but in exception to viewing the source code, what is it i can not do in windows ?
                            i like linux because its simpler to do things

                            just because you know how to write a simple shell script dosent make you an average user, an average user just wants firefox, office and games. Not programing
                            programing(even scripting) is considered advanced computing


                            personaly(and note i declared my personal opinion as personal, not as a fact) i dont like ubuntu nor mint as they limit what i can do (removing ctrl+alt+backspace from X? thats just dumb)

                            i started disliking gentoo cuz of its users trolling how advanced they are(my apologies to exceptions)

                            if you wanna be advanced, say and il give you BOOKS, every one over 300 pages long in small letters
                            and when you loose your eyes then you can troll how awsome you are

                            disclaimer i am not an advanced linux guru, just a bit more advanced then average, and probably more then my friend here D0pamine
                            nor have i read any of those books, mostly i read the amd64 abi and that cuz i neede to know something, not much
                            Last edited by gens; 08-26-2012, 02:07 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by gens View Post
                              let me see you mount a .bin image like that

                              modern ?
                              basics of computing have been set in the times of valves and such (and im not talking about the company, nor a faucet)

                              emerging things ?
                              gentoo makes everyone feel like a hax0r to the point they ignore common sense

                              by far the best bash tutorial i found was http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/li...x.html#101-103
                              was another by some guy, i dont remember
                              and ksh is the "serious" shell (ask any true unix zealot)

                              dont take this the wrong way as i see you take most things but in exception to viewing the source code, what is it i can not do in windows ?
                              i like linux because its simpler to do things

                              just because you know how to write a simple shell script dosent make you an average user, an average user just wants firefox, office and games. Not programing
                              programing(even scripting) is considered advanced computing


                              personaly(and note i declared my personal opinion as personal, not as a fact) i dont like ubuntu nor mint as they limit what i can do (removing ctrl+alt+backspace from X? thats just dumb)

                              i started disliking gentoo cuz of its users trolling how advanced they are(my apologies to exceptions)

                              if you wanna be advanced, say and il give you BOOKS, every one over 300 pages long in small letters
                              and when you loose your eyes then you can troll how awsome you are

                              disclaimer i am not an advanced linux guru, just a bit more advanced then average, and probably more then my friend here D0pamine
                              nor have i read any of those books, mostly i read the amd64 abi and that cuz i neede to know something, not much

                              handbags at dawn?

                              i never said gentoo was for the elite - well i did but in a sarcastic manner

                              i'm not rising to the bait anyway, my point stands - use what you want

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                bait?

                                i feel dirty just by replying to this

                                point im trying to make is an old one that linux is still for "tehnical" people, but its getting really close to being really good for anybody
                                and people like GUI's and find a console confusing if not frightening to use
                                and that you need to know it good if something goes wrong
                                and theres a lot more chance something will go wrong on linux(if you dont believe me try installing official radeon drivers on a couple of laptops, that is the most common problem(as i read nvidia aint far from it))

                                now to let my feelings get in the way of objectiveness:

                                you sir Dopamine should compare the quality of mine and your posts in this tread
                                if you look closely you'l see mine are more objective and faaaaar less condescending(that is until you tainted my name with "you dont know shit" comments)
                                if you dont like people drawing parallels with your nickname, dont choose something related to the brain, sex nor religion and similar things; especially if you dont know the meaning of it
                                dont treat people like they dont know something just because you want to teach someone some new thing you learned, unless they say stuff that shows they want to know but dont understand
                                and dont ever use localisms on an international forum, its just not nice

                                oh, and learning disk ISO disk image standards just to mount some image is yours to learn, i did it a long time ago and found acetoneiso is much simpler and dosent require me to google "how to mount this tipe of image using console in linux" and such
                                althou i like console stuff for their low requirements making them not in the way(i use over 3 console programs daily) they are rarely user friendly(at least to learn to use, user friendliness of console programs is debatable)


                                good i almost finished my math, didnt wanna post here no more anyway
                                Last edited by gens; 08-26-2012, 06:45 PM.

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