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linux, the very weak system for gaming

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  • #61
    Originally posted by D0pamine View Post
    You have to set up any OS correctly or have somebody wipe your anus
    While this might not be a direct contradiction, Apple does a great job of making it appear that they do this. It's all about the manner in which they deliver though. Games either 'work' or are pretty much entirely unavailable. Under linux, there's a lot in between. Perhaps Valve will fix the presentation aspect a bit, and steam will tell you "Hey, this game doesn't run on your hardware yet, or your kernel, etc".

    I half expect Valve to release a stripped-down performance-oriented linux distro to complement steam. Focus on SDL, Kernel, Mesa, OpenAL, and X11. You could pretty much turn any ATI/Intel/Nvidia box into a game console. I started working on one yesterday with ~x86 Gentoo to see how it would run, but the x11 overlay in Layman appears to be broken at the moment.

    F

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    • #62
      Originally posted by russofris View Post
      While this might not be a direct contradiction, Apple does a great job of making it appear that they do this. It's all about the manner in which they deliver though. Games either 'work' or are pretty much entirely unavailable. Under linux, there's a lot in between. Perhaps Valve will fix the presentation aspect a bit, and steam will tell you "Hey, this game doesn't run on your hardware yet, or your kernel, etc".

      I half expect Valve to release a stripped-down performance-oriented linux distro to complement steam. Focus on SDL, Kernel, Mesa, OpenAL, and X11. You could pretty much turn any ATI/Intel/Nvidia box into a game console. I started working on one yesterday with ~x86 Gentoo to see how it would run, but the x11 overlay in Layman appears to be broken at the moment.

      F
      every game has minimum system requirements if you read the box

      I can still play ut2k4-demo with the latest bleeding edge kernel and x11 ect i wonder if it runs on win8.... hows that for stable apis eh?

      edit - hows about xbmc as a frontend xD
      Last edited by D0pamine; 08-23-2012, 09:29 PM. Reason: edited it init

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      • #63
        Originally posted by D0pamine View Post
        every game has minimum system requirements if you read the box
        Man, I really hate playing devil's advocate here, but.... Games come in boxes still?

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        • #64
          Originally posted by russofris View Post
          Man, I really hate playing devil's advocate here, but.... Games come in boxes still?
          ones shoplifted or actually paid for ...

          i think even bittorrent iso's come with an .nfo file containing minimum system reqs sometimes

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          • #65
            When it comes to drivers and stable APIs, I can only think of the mess my father is in with his Windows XP installation on his main computer. His old system borked itself as Windows XP is always destined to do in the end, and he needs to reinstall. The problem is he is no longer sure where to get the drivers for his sound card, his TV capture card, and a multitude of other hardware on his machine. I know for a fact that if I stuck the Fedora 17 Live CD in there could expect it to just work with all of these devices. Once you get a properly supported driver in kernel, it will just work. You do not need to go searching through manuals and websites or old driver disks. Once the hardware is working on your computer you can expect it to continue to run for the full life of your hardware, every time you update your system until then. How is this a worse system than Windows?

            So why the big complaints about drivers? The problem with this system is that it requires hardware manufactures to actively support Linux - and by support Linux I mean have free in-kernel drivers.Yes, that means somewhat of a delay when it comes to supporting new hardware, but this can be alleviated as Intel had been working to do by working with the Linux kernel maintainers and other parts of the graphics infrastructure well in advance of a hardware launch. Complaints about binary blobs arise from the fact they are trying to shoe-horn Windows drivers on top of Linux. They are essentially userspace applications that also touch the kernel, which is bound to cause trouble. But they are not necessarily necessary and just because Linux does not specifically cater to them does not mean Linux is bad for gaming. It just means that for the moments gamers are not getting proper support from most of their hardware producers on Linux. By proper support, I mean free in kernel drivers.

            Just because companies are not doing the work to properly support Linux using it's own systems does not mean that Linux has a problem. It is just that they have yet to see the light yet.

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            • #66
              hey, its cool so many ppl dropped in to say something about it! keep it going!

              do you think it will get better when they drop the x and use wayland?

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              • #67
                Originally posted by oldskool69 View Post
                do you think it will get better when they drop the x and use wayland?
                It is quite honestly too early to tell. Wayland has the potential to simplify things significantly, it is just not in a place where it can be used for commercial releases yet. We're at the point where we're seeing experimental liveCD releases, which would put early adopters 1 year out, and commercial releases two years out.

                Until then, it's "X/mesa/SDL/OpenAL".

                Fingers crossed.

                F

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by oldskool69 View Post
                  hi all,

                  why is it, that i have like 50% better average gaming perfomance in windows 7 compared to lubuntu, for example, no matter, what i do? and why is it, that you always get errors, warnings and crashes everytime you install or run something on linux? i believe it is at the time, that developers make linux a gaming plattform, that is better than windows. every year i try linux again and it makes me sick that its still trash in gaming.

                  this is one video, that shows, what i tried to "explain" here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh-cnaJoGCw
                  Lets just go ahead and spawn another two threads:


                  Windows, the always broken bloated self-infecting piece of monopoly shi-

                  And

                  Mac, the egoistic overpriced stripped-down patent troll

                  Just go ahead!


                  Originally posted by russofris View Post
                  Until then, it's "X/mesa/SDL/OpenAL".

                  Fingers crossed.

                  F
                  I think, the "OpenAL" part is dead, no? Just like Allegro.

                  MESA is one of the implementations, which should just follow the (hard to follow) spec (OpenGL).

                  This leaves developers with "X/OpenGL/SDL" tripple, which is perfectly simple.
                  Last edited by crazycheese; 08-24-2012, 04:30 PM.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                    Linux isn't suitable for games, mate. I've been running a Linux installation since... forever. About 17 years. It has always sucked for games. The only fun I have with games on Linux is MAME and SNES9x; pretty much the only things that won't result in idiotic glitches. The majority of games always fuck up at something. Probably due to X11 and the various desktop environments having absolutely no standards regarding games. And zero interest in introducing any. From the perspective of X11 and the DEs, games do not exist. They simply don't care about them. So developers have to hack together kludges in order to produce something that kind of works. Microsoft on the other hand always made games a first-class citizen on their operating systems. It's not about drivers, by the way. It's about the very core of the graphical stack not even remotely considering games.

                    So seriously, what did you expect? You might just as well try to play DVDs on your toaster.
                    I don't know about that, mate.
                    Around 2005 or so (not sure anymore) I remember I was playing McGee's Alice with better FPS on Debian than on Windows...
                    Yes, I was using the Nvidia blob but still...

                    Now since I move to the free Radeon driver, although we are more than half a decade later....
                    Sad story...

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                    • #70
                      I'm sorry, are the ops on holiday? This thread belongs in the "Gaming" sub-forum.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
                        I think, the "OpenAL" part is dead, no? Just like Allegro.

                        MESA is one of the implementations, which should just follow the (hard to follow) spec (OpenGL).

                        This leaves developers with "X/OpenGL/SDL" tripple, which is perfectly simple.
                        i think you can use openAL, was just something with it you have to use an older version

                        as far as i know SDL handles making windows and such, so your left with "OpenGL/SDL"
                        playing xonotic GLX gives me more fps then SDL, maybe SDL 2.0 is better performance wise ? (mind that GLX should(!) be minimum overhead and that SDL handles input and sound too)

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by gamerk2 View Post
                          Wrong. If I'm making some program that uses the GPU, guess what? I need to interact with the GPU drivers. Now, someone goes and changes the Kernel API, the drivers need a new update, and boom, my program stops working, or I have a massive performance regression, because some feature I was using got broken somewhere between the Kernel and driver.
                          The problem here is the closed-source driver, not the change in kernel API. Do not upgrade your kernel if your closed-source driver supplier does not support it. If you don't want the driver supplier to prevent you from kernel upgrades, convince them to release an open-source driver.

                          Originally posted by gamerk2 View Post
                          When you change the Kernel API, you necessitate a driver redesign. When you necessitate a driver redesign, you really tick off the people who interact with said driver. Additions, fine. But you should almost NEVER remove functionallity.
                          What if some API function turns out later to be poorly designed / unsafe / not general enough? By never removing any functions you prevent the removal of cruft as well as a good deal of improvement.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by nej_simon View Post
                            Oh really? I've seen it happen plenty of times. Some library is changed and then your third party software breaks because it was dependent on the earlier version of the library. Sure you can link your application statically or bundle libraries but due to a lack of standardization there would be a lot of stuff to bundle
                            Your response essentially says "well but I don't like bundling libraries, there's many of them". Well, you can either use the solution you don't like, but which works and everyone uses it, or keep doing it wrong and unproductively complaining. The number of libraries you'll have to bundle is exactly the same on Windows and Linux.

                            Originally posted by nej_simon View Post
                            Hell, even new versions of GCC sometimes break compatibility with older versions so you might have problems if your software is compiled with a different version than the system one.
                            The C ABI of GCC hasn't changed in ages.
                            The C++ ABI changes from time to time, but this is only relevant if you want to use libraries from the system written in C++ (see above about bundling). Typically the libraries themselves break ABI much more often than GCC. For example there's an implicit ABI break with every release of Boost.

                            Originally posted by nej_simon View Post
                            Except that it's not that easy. There are many RPM- and deb-based distributions and many releases of each with a varying degree of compatibility with each other. So you can't just create an RPM and then expect it to magically work across all RPM-distributions.
                            I packaged an icon theme around 8 releases of Ubuntu ago and I didn't have to change a thing since then.
                            You will only run into incompatibilities if you want to use the system libraries or integrate closely with some desktop features, which games don't need to do.

                            Originally posted by nej_simon View Post
                            So the standardized way of installing software is to just unpack it in your home dir? Right. But lets say you want to install the game so that all users can access it. How would you do that?
                            Tell each user to unpack the game in his home directory. You waste some disk space, but it's very simple. If you really can't live without that $1 worth of disk space, you'll need to do some extra work.

                            Originally posted by nej_simon View Post
                            Compare this to what you would do in windows (run a installer and click next a few times) or OSX (just drag the app bundle to the applications dir). App installations on linux aren't an issue you say?
                            You are comparing apples to oranges. On one side you have a tarred game (minimal support from the developer), on the other you have prepackaged installers (full support).

                            Originally posted by nej_simon View Post
                            Then why don't you go tell that to the Gnome and Ubuntu developers? I'm sure they would love to hear about it so they can stop wasting their time fixing this apparent non-issue.
                            GNOME wants to avoid ABI breaks in Glib and GTK, which means you can use a newer version of GTK with a program compiled for an older version. This has exactly nothing to do with kernel API stability.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by nej_simon View Post
                              Perhaps in some cases, but should a user really have to resort to repo with bleeding edge software just to get a working driver? Wouldn't it be better to support third party drivers so that the hardware manufacturer can bundle a driver with the hardware?
                              Let's say there are N operating systems and M hardware manufacturers.

                              You want each of M manufacturers to write a driver for N systems. For this, each of the M manufacturers must hire at least N specialist programmers (let's assume it's unlikely for a programmer to be proficient in dirver development on two systems simultaneously). In practice, they often hire non-specialists who write crappy drivers, or do not supply drivers for some of the N systems at all. Furthermore, because each manufacturer works in isolation, they cannot reuse code between similar devices from different manufacturers.

                              If the each of the M hardware manufacturers instead releases documentation on what their damn hardware actually does, any competent programmer can write the driver for any of the N systems. This means that the operating system vendor or a group of volunteers can write the drivers for all M devices, exploiting all similarities between them to reduce the amount of work that needs to be done.

                              Since typically M is much higher than N, in your scenario we require many more programmers - which are a scarce resource - to produce the same number of lower quality drivers.

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                              • #75
                                This thread looks funny after Valve announcement. It seems Linux is the BEST system for gaming. Even with much lesser optimization time and Unity not suspending compositions L4D2 runs faster than on windows! Windoze is just a crap.

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