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linux, the very weak system for gaming

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  • #16
    Originally posted by D0pamine View Post
    forgiveness? i bow to your superior knowledge and intellect... oh wait no

    IT WORKS AMAZINGLY WELL WITH X11!! and if you're stupid enough to be running a compositing window manager with a fancy DE and then encounter problems such as games failing and power consumption you can always quit said desktop env and run xinit ut2004 (for eg)


    DOMINATING!!
    Yeah, I'm sure the average user would love to start their games via xinit to work around problems with their desktop environment or window manager. You can't be serious.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by nej_simon View Post
      Yeah, I'm sure the average user would love to start their games via xinit to work around problems with their desktop environment or window manager. You can't be serious.

      play on windows then and die like the rest...... what you call problems are not problems just bad choices


      GODLIKE!!!!

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      • #18
        I have always found that native games work very well under linux. For stuff in wine it is a mixed bag; some works better, some works worse, and some works not at all. My performane in windows also definately isn't 150% my linux performance (unless you compare the open drivers on linux with the closed windows drivers, then the performance on linux is terrible.)

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        • #19
          Originally posted by RealNC View Post
          So developers have to hack together kludges in order to produce something that kind of works. Microsoft on the other hand always made games a first-class citizen on their operating systems. It's not about drivers, by the way. It's about the very core of the graphical stack not even remotely considering games.
          why you say that developing a game is easier on windows ? that its glitch free ? that linux/x11 dosen't support direct rendering ?
          wine bugzilla has bugs marked something like "needed cuz of a dirty hack on windows" and dirty hacks can get you some extra fps(a platform independent hack woud be Fast inverse square root, and platform dependant woud be like in what order to send vertices and how to make the gfx card swallow it faster)

          problem is games are made for windows
          its not really a problem since over 70% of gamers use windows and i doubt many of them know how anything works on their computer so games are made for windows for a simple reason to sell better(port to linux takes dev time that is money, and trust me they calculate with cold blood is it worth it)

          oh, and only nvidia gets as much if not more fps on linux

          i got 2 games that run better on linux on my rig, warcraft tft and xonotic that is linux native

          PS having an opengl accelerated desktop is mostly rly bad for other opengl aps cuz of interference and as there is many backends for accelerating desktop it woud be hell to make a native game that cooperates with them(or making them cooperate with it)

          one of the worst as i see in the phoronix benchmarks is unity, and my common sense tells me no DM shud use more then 100-200mb(remember "huge" file/page/stuff in computer terms is 4mb, enlightenment that im using right now with all its bling(xcept compiz, which is some 10mb in ram) uses 37mb on a 64bit sistem + X 27mb.
          And that's relative as X adapts its caches (i guess enlightenment too)
          Last edited by gens; 08-22-2012, 12:48 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by oldskool69 View Post
            hi all,

            why is it, that i have like 50% better average gaming perfomance in windows 7 compared to lubuntu, for example, no matter, what i do? and why is it, that you always get errors, warnings and crashes everytime you install or run something on linux? i believe it is at the time, that developers make linux a gaming plattform, that is better than windows. every year i try linux again and it makes me sick that its still trash in gaming.

            this is one video, that shows, what i tried to "explain" here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh-cnaJoGCw
            The default desktop environment on Ubuntu (Unity) has a problem that causes the framerate to drop in games (bug #988079). You might want to try starting "Ubuntu Classic (No effects)" or Unity 2D instead for gaming.

            Unfortunately third party development for Linux is difficult due to a lack of stable API's. There are often incompatibilities between different Linux distributions, and between different versions of the same distribution - even if they are released just a few months apart. There is also a lack of a standardized way of distributing software that works across different Linux distributions. If there isn't a package for your specific distribution you'll usually end up with a .tar.gz and a howto. That's why you often need to use various hacks and tricks to get third party software working. Hopefully the situation will improve since both Ubuntu and Gnome is aiming for API stability now.
            Last edited by nej_simon; 08-22-2012, 12:50 PM.

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            • #21
              I can't say that linux is weak for gaming
              i haven't used dualboot for few years and i still have played a lot of games
              native and with wine.

              there are many games that work out of the box via wine.
              ofc there are plenty that doesnt or need some dirty hacks.
              still there's a lot of games to play. u dont even have the time to play them all.

              https://www.youtube.com/user/Xpander666


              and now with the steam coming and lots of kickstarter games getting native ports. things will go even better.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by nej_simon View Post
                Unfortunately third party development for Linux is difficult due to a lack of stable API's. There are often incompatibilities between different Linux distributions, and between different versions of the same distribution - even if they are released just a few months apart. There is also a lack of a standardized way of distributing software that works across different Linux distributions. If there isn't a package for your specific distribution you'll usually end up with a .tar.gz and a howto. That's why you often need to use various hacks and tricks to get third party software working. Hopefully the situation will improve since both Ubuntu and Gnome is aiming for API stability now.
                As far as I am concerned that's a myth. Every single one of the humble indie bundle games does it.

                There was a new post in the shiva3d engine / tech demo thread so I downloaded it: http://www.stonetrip.com/download/Te...t-v1.5.tar.bz2

                The "Howto" you mention would be:
                Step 1: Extract the archive
                Step 2: Doubleclick on "TheHunt".
                It just runs on my very recent 64 bit archlinux.

                As a developer you only need to make a list of the libraries you use and tell people what versions you used. Or better, package them and do LD_LIBRARY_PATH in your start script.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by nej_simon View Post
                  The default desktop environment on Ubuntu (Unity) has a problem that causes the framerate to drop in games (bug #988079). You might want to try starting "Ubuntu Classic (No effects)" or Unity 2D instead for gaming.

                  Unfortunately third party development for Linux is difficult due to a lack of stable API's. There are often incompatibilities between different Linux distributions, and between different versions of the same distribution - even if they are released just a few months apart. There is also a lack of a standardized way of distributing software that works across different Linux distributions. If there isn't a package for your specific distribution you'll usually end up with a .tar.gz and a howto. That's why you often need to use various hacks and tricks to get third party software working. Hopefully the situation will improve since both Ubuntu and Gnome is aiming for API stability now.
                  1: Why the heck does the choice in desktop environments affect FPS one way or the other? Overhead should be close to non-existent.
                  2: Yes, stable API's would help a TON.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by nej_simon View Post
                    Unfortunately third party development for Linux is difficult due to a lack of stable API's. There are often incompatibilities between different Linux distributions, and between different versions of the same distribution - even if they are released just a few months apart. There is also a lack of a standardized way of distributing software that works across different Linux distributions. If there isn't a package for your specific distribution you'll usually end up with a .tar.gz and a howto. That's why you often need to use various hacks and tricks to get third party software working. Hopefully the situation will improve since both Ubuntu and Gnome is aiming for API stability now.
                    i run slackware current and xonotic never failed on me(althou it has sometimes problems starting do to pthreads, but i think its cuz i have only 1cpu/thread) neither did warcraft 3 tft nor dota2

                    bugs are filed to open source programs every day, and sometimes solving one bug causes another to appear that has been there all along, just hasn't been triggered

                    (not to brag) iv been learning asm as a hobby the last month or so
                    little program im doing does some opengl 3D(very basic and amateurish sofar) on a 64bit linux, avoiding stdlibs and such
                    from what i learned(as there is almost nothing about 64bit linux asm on the net) is that C and other higher level languages abstract everything(asm does nothing of the sort, but its possible to make almost cross platform 32bit opengl program(syscalls woud need to be changed and idk)) to a degree that if you write your code in opengl, glut, sdl and such, it woudnt be much of a problem to port it as most of the code is de facto platform independet(game logic, phisics, math, even 3D with opengl)

                    so... boycot directX so that it woud be cheaper to port things, thus making it sometimes even worth the effort for companies(companies need to make money to survive and bring you games)

                    too summarise a bit: no sane gamer woud switch, not even for valves 10fps. Simply cuz they dont know how to set up all that stuff you need to get that 10fps. Even worse that most games run far better in their native environment that the "gamers" are used too and know.

                    edit: PS linux is stable in its (most of) POSIX API, and ofc opengl (GLUT is stable too)
                    so if you write a POSIX/opengl game that does its own physics, uses GLUT and idk about sound(shud be some stable cross platform thingy for sound, maybe openAL) you'd have almost no problem porting it to anything x86(that can run the opengl version you choose) maybe even ARM(dont care, didnt check);
                    but people use shared libs/ other projects as shortcuts(GLUT IS a shortcut to make a window, but its proven stable) that are not stable

                    problem with commercial game engines is that they often have middleware, made to be easy to integrate and fast to make good results(read cheap and works)
                    Last edited by gens; 08-22-2012, 01:24 PM.

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                    • #25
                      One of the major issues with gaming on linux is that major distributions are often 6 months-1 year behind kernel/mesa git. Users that want the latest and greatest are forced to download and compile the latest git, and suffer the consequences of running pre-release software. Those who do not run git will look at Michaels benchmarks and get Jaded because they cannot achieve the same results with their freshly downloaded Ubuntu 12.04. It's more of a perception issue than an issue with the technology.

                      I always thought it would be a neat exercise to release a gentoo-derived distribution to close the gap. It would be bare-bones and feature daily builds of the latest kernel RC, Mesa git, etc. Release it as a raw disk image for USB sticks so that anyone could simply download and run "today's linux", so that they could see what to expect out of the next major Ubuntu/FC/Deb release.

                      I have an AMD 5750, an Nvidia 8800GT, and a T400 with an intel GMA4500HD. I could probably bang out a reasonable platform in less than 24h, distribute it through bit torrent, and supply the portage directory as an alternate "source" download to meet my obligations under the GPL (I'd probably want to double check this first).

                      F

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by gamerk2 View Post
                        1: Why the heck does the choice in desktop environments affect FPS one way or the other? Overhead should be close to non-existent.
                        2: Yes, stable API's would help a TON.
                        back in the compiz-fusion days you could shout your mum in your bedroom show off your cube desktop and the wobbly windows then when she's said 'very good dear' and carried on about her business you could switch it off then double click your game icon and frag some more n00bs but now if you're a gnome 3 user you have to log out and switch to gnome-classic which is utterly featureless ( can you even edit a panel now ? ) which begs the question why does one need compositing at all? especially when the likes of openbox have neat little 2d effects... desktop env is a choice

                        as for stable API see libSDL post previous

                        LUDICROUS KILL!!!

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                          Probably due to X11 and the various desktop environments having absolutely no standards regarding games. And zero interest in introducing any. From the perspective of X11 and the DEs, games do not exist. They simply don't care about them.
                          In fairness, the modern DEs just don't work at anything at all. It's not just limited to games.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by russofris View Post
                            One of the major issues with gaming on linux is that major distributions are often 6 months-1 year behind kernel/mesa git. Users that want the latest and greatest are forced to download and compile the latest git, and suffer the consequences of running pre-release software. Those who do not run git will look at Michaels benchmarks and get Jaded because they cannot achieve the same results with their freshly downloaded Ubuntu 12.04. It's more of a perception issue than an issue with the technology.
                            I find amazing that many posters forgot 3D games on Microsoft Windows 7 requires third party drivers i.e AMD Catalyst or Nvidia Forceware. Most comments never actually run stock driver from a bare-bone Microsoft Windows 7, they will face the same problem with majority of distribution using mesa. Some benchmarks don't take account of that crucial factor. Mesa driver is amazing despite its lagging from third-parties drivers.

                            I always thought it would be a neat exercise to release a gentoo-derived distribution to close the gap. It would be bare-bones and feature daily builds of the latest kernel RC, Mesa git, etc. Release it as a raw disk image for USB sticks so that anyone could simply download and run "today's linux", so that they could see what to expect out of the next major Ubuntu/FC/Deb release.
                            Fedora does run the latest kernel RC from its rawhide development. Stable release does run newer version which allow running newer hardware as well.
                            http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Kernel

                            Linux system is good for gaming although it does not have commercial version which is up to publishers themselves.

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                            • #29
                              Works for me, though I sometimes experience the annoying screen resolution screw up and miss being able to easily minimize a game.

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                              • #30
                                same reason some console ports have bad performance on PCs but are fine on consoles.

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