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  • #76
    Originally posted by RealNC View Post
    I'll believe it when it works :-)


    No one cares about that. H.264 is where battery power goes.


    Again, I'll believe it when it works. And what do you expect anyway? Someone asks me what laptop to buy and I tell them one with AMD graphics? When they put Linux on it and wonder why stuff doesn't work, they're going to kill me. I'm suggesting what works *now*. That is what's important. Intel is a very safe bet right now. And if they want to run 3D games on it, I'm recommending NVidia. Under no circumstance can I truly recommend AMD as of this moment. If I did, they would come back 3 days later and throw their problematic laptop at my face.
    Excuse me? It works just fine now. Here is a laptop I ordered just recently, with Ubuntu only pre-installed (no Windows), thereby saving myself $350AUD compared to what an equivalent model is currently selling for in local stores.

    http://pioneercomputers.com.au/produ...c2=148&id=3093

    Intel® Core i5-460M 2.53 Ghz Turbo 2.80 G Dual Core 3 MB Cache 1066 MHz Processor
    ATI Mobility Radeon™ HD 5470 1GB GDDR3 PCIe Directx 11

    When it arrives I will wipe Ubuntu and install Linux Mint KDE 12. It will be sweet. I know this because it is meant to replace my desktop (Athlon64x2 2GHz with ATI HD 4350 graphics), which is getting a bit long in the tooth now, and yet it runs KDE4 very nicely indeed with the open source AMD/ATI graphics drivers. Extremely snappy and responsive.

    On Windows. This is a Linux forum and we're talking about the open source driver. The open source AMD driver is slow.
    And here is the beauty of that ... because of the power of the underlying hardware it is at the very least no slower right now than the equivalent-price Intel graphics, but it is about to go ahead in leaps and bounds.

    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTA1MjY

    By your own argument there is no room for improvement in a machine with Intel graphics, the underlying hardware constrains it.

    I don't see how this is important. Not a single person where I installed Linux on his/her machine even cared about the license of the driver. The only thing they care is that it works.
    You have never heard a complaint that in their Linux binary driver nVidia dropped support for legacy GPUs? You have never heard a complaint that the closed video driver broke after a kernel update and they could no longer boot their machine to a graphical desktop? You have never heard a complaint that people had to jump through hoops to install a closed video driver why didn't it come with the Linux distro?

    You must lead a very sheltered life.
    Last edited by hal2k1; 02-08-2012, 08:29 PM.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by b3nn0 View Post
      Yes there is.
      http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldu...e-1399905.html
      True, the HD 7970 is an absolute high-end GPU.
      It even beats the GTX 580. Well, if there wasn't openGL.
      DirectX: 7970 > GTX 580
      OpenGL: GTX580 > 7970

      I give you 2 seconds to think about what is more needed on Linux.
      And the GTX 580 is still ~30-40€ cheaper than the 7970.
      Choice is simple from a hardware perspective for a Linux user.
      And the choice is clearly ATI. Why?

      Here is a Graphics card hierarchy chart from Nov 2011. The cards listed at each level are roughly the same performance, one wouldn't normally be able to pick the difference in use.

      http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...ce,3067-7.html

      At every level there are choices between nVidia and AMD/ATI. Only when one gets to the lower levels are there also Intel choices.

      At the bottom of the page are listed some of the best value buys at different levels. Radeon choices predominate the listing.

      So from purely a hardware perspective, the best performance-for-money at many tiers of performance is an ATI card. From a driver perspective, for reasons of just-works-out-of-the-box with no hassles, one would want an open source driver. The Intel drivers right now are better at getting what performance there is out of the hardware, but they are constrained by the hardware. The open source drivers for AMD/ATI cards are yet to be as well tuned, but they are generally running on better hardware for equivalent price to Intel GPUs, so they currently perform at least as well.

      When in the near future the open source drivers for AMD/ATI cards do receive tuning for performance, such as this:

      http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTA1MjY

      "the R600 2D color tiling support is designed to deliver major performance boosts when it works correctly, but the initial support published last month was rather buggy. Since then, Glisse has worked a great deal on improving the 2D color tiling support.

      Announced on the mailing list yesterday was completing the R600 2D color tiling support."


      ... they will clearly be the best option for Linux users, without a shadow of doubt.
      Last edited by hal2k1; 02-08-2012, 08:57 PM.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by b3nn0 View Post
        Yes there is.
        http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldu...e-1399905.html
        True, the HD 7970 is an absolute high-end GPU.
        It even beats the GTX 580. Well, if there wasn't openGL.
        DirectX: 7970 > GTX 580
        OpenGL: GTX580 > 7970

        I give you 2 seconds to think about what is more needed on Linux.
        And the GTX 580 is still ~30-40€ cheaper than the 7970.
        Choice is simple from a hardware perspective for a Linux user.
        LOL we talk about the hardware and we all know the openGL speed support comes 3 month later compared to the directX. In fact to measure the "hardware" speed only directX matters.
        you will see the gtx580 will lose on openGL in the future.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by hal2k1 View Post
          When in the near future the open source drivers for AMD/ATI cards do receive tuning for performance, such as this:

          http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTA1MjY

          ... they will clearly be the best option for Linux users, without a shadow of doubt.
          After the R600 2D tiling patches land in the open source Radeon driver, the next major performance boost should be coming from HiZ.

          http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTA1NTE

          The AMD Catalyst driver on Linux obviously supports Hyper Z's full capabilities, but the R600+ open-source support hasn't been mainlined. There's been R600+ Hierarchical Z patches floating in this FreeDesktop.org BugZilla bug for more than a year along with some patches in Alex Deucher's HTTP repository, but nothing that's worked its way mainline yet. Hierarchical Z support requires kernel DRM and Mesa (R600g) patches.

          This afternoon updated Mesa/kernel patches arrived from Jerome Glisse in the aforelinked bug posting for open-source Hierarchical Z support on the GPUs from the Radeon HD 2000 series through the Radeon HD 6900 series. These patches were re-based to work atop the recent R600 tiling work.

          The Hierarchical Z support for modern Radeon GPUs has been baking for about a year and we can only hope it's merged soon (assuming all issues are worked out) so that its performance can be more competitive with the proprietary Catalyst driver. This support would likely end up in the Linux 3.4 kernel and Mesa 8.1 releases.


          There are a number of significant performance boosts coming for the r600g open source driver for later models of AMD/ATI cards.

          the Hierarchical Z support does make the performance go up a fair amount. There's also the 2D tiling, PCI Express 2.0 support, and other not-yet-enabled-by-default features to up the frame-rates.

          Finally, it may yet happen that the open source driver does come to support video decode acceleration via UVD.

          http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTAwNzg

          Christian writes to the developers, "to support multiple compute rings, async DMA engines and UVD we need to teach the radeon kernel module how to sync buffers between different rings and make some changes to the command submission ioctls."

          The German open-source developer acknowledges, "we can't release any documentation about async DMA or UVD (yet)." Yet is the keyword. John Bridgman and others have long acknowledged they would be looking in ways to possibly provide open-source video support.


          The groundwork is being done in preparation for this. There wouldn't be any point if it was never going to happen.
          Last edited by hal2k1; 02-09-2012, 03:51 AM.

          Comment


          • #80
            Your postings are completely pointless until you OWN+USED the hardware you always talk about. I had/have those ati cards for fglrx:

            radeon 9000 mobile agp (used) -> unsupported by fglrx since 8.28.8
            radeon 9700 pro agp (dead) -> unsupported by fglrx since 9-3
            radeon 9800 pro agp (used by a friend) -> unsupported by fglrx since 9-3
            radeon x700 (pro) pci-e (2 cards dead) -> unsupported by fglrx since 9-3, lived at least long enough to fix radeon oss issues
            radeon x1600 pci-e (available) -> unsupported by fglrx since 9-3
            radeon hd 3450 pci-e (sold) -> supported by fglrx, but xvba crashed too often, therefore i got rid of it
            radeon hd 4550 pci-e (available) -> supported by fglrx, seems to work
            radeon hd 5670 pci-e (used) -> supported by fglrx, problems with xvba/gl2benchmark since 11-12

            so how many cards did YOU test with fglrx? if somebody has got spare ati cards from series 6 and 7 feel free to send em to me.

            Comment


            • #81
              I have 5670 and desktop effects in kde are very bad with fglrx. Better the radeon driver.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by kirů View Post
                I have 5670 and desktop effects in kde are very bad with fglrx. Better the radeon driver.
                for me its the same the radeon driver beat the catalyst.

                for me the catalyst is just shit.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Dammit. Shipment of my order has been delayed. Probably need to wait until Saturday.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    I'm getting to hate Catalyst as well.

                    I'm getting to hate Catalyst driver as well. You can see my adventures in the AtiLand here

                    The most silly issue is that I have 2 GPUs but driver is really messed up, so it does detects only one of GPUs in OpenCL apps but in ADL I could see both, which is just odd. Various subparts of driver have a various ideas on number GPUs I have. Pretty cool bug, I should admit .

                    I can also add that overall quality of the driver is quite low and generated packages tend to not install properly. At least I never had a great success in generation of packages by their installer. Most of time initrd will not update so driver will not start correctly on next boot. Maybe brave AMD QA staff should attempt to test their product before releasing it and fix at least most stupid/annoying bugs? I wonder if AMD haves QA staff at all.

                    And AMD APP SDK... hmm, it can't be installed in civilized ways using package manager. It's rather have to by copied by some script a-la old make install times. The only problem is that deinstalling it would be far from trivial.

                    Why I do not use nvidia? Well, their computational architecture isn't great for my tasks. It's so bad that even 1 active AMD GPU would completely beat 2 or even 3 nvidia GPUs of the same price range (they simply have fewer ALUs -> they lose). I hope opensource driver will be better than this catalist full of bugs and issues. Unfortunately it does not supports OpenCL at the moment yet.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Bye-bye for me, too

                      Hi,

                      i can understand your frustration with the state of AMD /ATI driver support in Linux. I myself finally made the switch to Windows 7 after having been "forced to live" with this driver disaster. The open radeon driver does not function due to energy issues and since my notebook really IS a tool and not the center of my being i decided to ditch Linux since there is no fully functional desktop environment when you are a customer of ATI or AMD. The situation and this company really are sucking. The only Linux i have left now resides in my Motorola Defy+ ...

                      Hope you'll be glad with your all-new graphic chip ;-)

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        It's pretty obvious that as a company, AMD has just been mailing it in for the past 2-3 years. I really question if they're going to be even relevant in another 3 years.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                          I finally switched to NVidia (I ordered a GTX 560 Ti). I've been using ATI cards since almost 10 years (a Radeon 7500 was the first.) But, lacking good Linux support for 10 years is too much. But you know what? In 10 more years from now, when maybe the drivers will be good at last, I'll switch back. But for now, you lost a very loyal customer who actually tried very hard to like your products much more than the ones from your competitor.
                          "In 10 more years from now, when maybe the drivers will be good at last, I'll switch back."

                          Good luck.

                          Waiting for AMD/ATI drivers to improve is hopeless. Why didn't they just leave it as the ATI brand, anyway?

                          You guys will be arguing about AMD drivers for the next 10 yrs or maybe it won't even get that far. AMD DOESN'T SUPPORT LINUX! If you can't have drivers that do what you want, then it's not supported.

                          If all you need is minimal usage and there's several features that aren't important to you and that's sufficient, great. But, it doesn't change the fact that there's insufficient Linux support.

                          I consider Nvidia's support to be poor, too, but Nvidia and ATI are MS-centric. What do they say, pick your poison?

                          I still want to get another (new but not necessarily 'new' as in from a store or store bought) video card but it will be Nvidia for sure. I just don't see any other choice.

                          Btw, with respect to power saving features and what might be the best choice for a laptop, it would be Intel, right? Does the Intel HD 3000 graphics have working power features and full 3D?

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Panix View Post
                            Btw, with respect to power saving features and what might be the best choice for a laptop, it would be Intel, right? Does the Intel HD 3000 graphics have working power features and full 3D?
                            Yes, mostly. I'm not sure whether RC6 defaults on yet, but if you follow the Intel news here you'll know.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Kano View Post
                              Your postings are completely pointless until you OWN+USED the hardware you always talk about. I had/have those ati cards for fglrx:

                              radeon 9000 mobile agp (used) -> unsupported by fglrx since 8.28.8
                              radeon 9700 pro agp (dead) -> unsupported by fglrx since 9-3
                              radeon 9800 pro agp (used by a friend) -> unsupported by fglrx since 9-3
                              radeon x700 (pro) pci-e (2 cards dead) -> unsupported by fglrx since 9-3, lived at least long enough to fix radeon oss issues
                              radeon x1600 pci-e (available) -> unsupported by fglrx since 9-3
                              radeon hd 3450 pci-e (sold) -> supported by fglrx, but xvba crashed too often, therefore i got rid of it
                              radeon hd 4550 pci-e (available) -> supported by fglrx, seems to work
                              radeon hd 5670 pci-e (used) -> supported by fglrx, problems with xvba/gl2benchmark since 11-12

                              so how many cards did YOU test with fglrx? if somebody has got spare ati cards from series 6 and 7 feel free to send em to me.
                              I haved owned and used:

                              Radeon 9200 SE
                              Radeon HD 2400 Pro
                              Radeon HD 4350
                              ... and just being delivered is a ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5470

                              I have run Linux exclusively for all of these except the Radeon 9200 SE.

                              Apart from the Radeon 9200 SE card I have avoided using fglrx. They have all worked pretty well with they open source drivers, which continue to improve all the time.
                              Last edited by hal2k1; 02-10-2012, 02:10 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                On laptops you usually have got use fglrx for best power management. If you are very lucky you get something with a muxless layout, without solutions like bumblebee your chip with stay all the time under power and do just nothing. Have fun!

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