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  • #31
    Originally posted by uid313 View Post
    [*]Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Nvidia open source driver to be better than the open source AMD driver, despite AMD's support and Nvidia's lack of support.[/list]
    Consider this me correcting you, because you are wrong.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by hal2k1 View Post
      The benchmarks are for Windows, but they ultimately reflect the underlying power of the graphics hardware, do they not? The very graphics hardware that could be used on Linux systems. The same graphics hardware where the benchmark performance of the top nVidia and AMD/ATI GPUs is well over three, and approaching four times the performance of the top Intel GPU.
      Wether it reflect the underlying power of the graphic hardware or not is not the problem. It's ultimately depend on the graphics driver for the hardware to run OK-ish or not. It's of no use if you have the best graphic card in this world if you can't use it, or if the driver can only driving 20% of the supposedly-performance, right?

      So, it depend on the driver. And the OSS driver != binary blob from respected company. So, in term of function and feature,
      • Nouveau != nVidia binary driver
      • Radeon driver != fglrx
      • for Intel, there's only open source intel driver

      Cause Intel drive all their effort in Linux on their open source driver, and have a head start, it became more mature than Radeon driver which have a slow start and to separate their driver development (for now), IMHO.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by cl333r View Post
        So, RealNC, what are the ups and downs using Nvidia so far? Any bugs, glitches?
        The card is not here yet. It arrives on Thursday, Feb 9.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by t.s. View Post
          Wether it reflect the underlying power of the graphic hardware or not is not the problem. It's ultimately depend on the graphics driver for the hardware to run OK-ish or not. It's of no use if you have the best graphic card in this world if you can't use it, or if the driver can only driving 20% of the supposedly-performance, right?

          So, it depend on the driver. And the OSS driver != binary blob from respected company. So, in term of function and feature,
          • Nouveau != nVidia binary driver
          • Radeon driver != fglrx
          • for Intel, there's only open source intel driver

          Cause Intel drive all their effort in Linux on their open source driver, and have a head start, it became more mature than Radeon driver which have a slow start and to separate their driver development (for now), IMHO.
          I am fully aware of the different drivers for Linux, both open source and proprietary, available for different GPUs.

          Even if your point quoted above were true, and the Intel Linux driver really was more advanced, I doubt very much that it is so advanced that it realises all of the underlying power of the hardware compared to only 20% for the open source AMD/ATI drivers.

          For example, recently it was reported on January 9th 2012 on Phoronix that Intel drivers for Linux had reached the OpenGL 3 milestone.

          http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTA0MDA

          It was later reported on January 29th the the open source AMD/ATI R600 Gallium3D driver can now do OpenGL 3.0, GLSL 1.30

          http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTA1MDM

          Just 20 days later. This doesn't sound like Intel drivers are that far ahead of their competition, does it?

          Certainly Intel divers aren't going to have a 500% better performance (as would be required to make up for the lower performance of Intel GPUs) just because Intel are 20 days ahead in their driver development.

          So my reply to you would be that while you may (or may not) be marginally aware of the state of driver development, clearly you have no idea at all about the relative performance of the underlying hardware itself.
          Last edited by hal2k1; 02-08-2012, 01:21 AM.

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          • #35
            Prudence

            A few years ago I had more issues with fglrx. My ATI Radeon HD2900 was a nightmare, but like you I was also very forgiving. Waiting. The news of the monthly releases back then were very welcome, and it has paid off.

            Then got myself a greater Radeon card and now I haven't had a major driver issue in years.

            I have had minor driver issues, in part due to me upgrading too often while on Debian unstable. However, even then it was on the level of once a year, and solvable.

            Now I run Debian testing and haven't had any issue with fglrx in a year. I also don't have the time to maintain or tweak the system so I traded unstable for testing.

            I also only 'aptitude safe-upgrade'.

            The combo 'testing' and 'aptitude safe-upgrade' has been rock solid for me.

            Prudence

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by hal2k1 View Post
              Certainly Intel divers aren't going to have a 500% better performance (as would be required to make up for the lower performance of Intel GPUs) just because Intel are 20 days ahead in their driver development.

              So my reply to you would be that while you may (or may not) be marginally aware of the state of driver development, clearly you have no idea at all about the relative performance of the underlying hardware itself.
              I find that Intel is actually the best solution for the non-gamer. It has good performance for compositing desktops and also video acceleration which enhances the battery life on laptops. But if you want to run commercial 3D games, especially the so called "AAA titles", with all their eye candy and smooth framerates, Intel is the last thing you want. Which leaves ATI and NVidia and their binary drivers (forget the open drivers; not playing at 1920x1080 with as near to 60FPS as possible is not doing it.) And when it comes to binary drivers, NVidia wins. Having VDPAU and what seems the best support from Wine simply sounds like the better option.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                I finally switched to NVidia (I ordered a GTX 560 Ti). I've been using ATI cards since almost 10 years (a Radeon 7500 was the first.) But, lacking good Linux support for 10 years is too much. But you know what? In 10 more years from now, when maybe the drivers will be good at last, I'll switch back. But for now, you lost a very loyal customer who actually tried very hard to like your products much more than the ones from your competitor.

                So no more pro-ATI trolling from me. From now on I'm an pro-NVidia guy. Er, no wait... Strike that last part ;-)
                Exactly my story. And best part of it - AMD does not want you to buy their cards!

                You could buy used AMD card and test opensource drivers, or contribute to them - but never expect that you will be backed-up by full company support.

                Nvidia does not do opensource, AMD is not interested in opensource as selling point. There is some difference between, but only if you are PC hardware electronics engineer or student.

                Originally posted by uid313 View Post
                I got a Nvidia card. I am not a fanboy of any company.


                My Nvidia card works good under Linux. The proprietary drivers work great, and the open source drivers work alright too. I actually use the open source device drivers, as they cover my needs well.

                I don't like that Nvidia does not provide open source drivers nor does it support open source driver development.
                AMD on the other hand does contribute to open source development. Hence, I really would like to switch to AMD.

                But I cant.
                Thats pretty much my story, except I use blob, because I target performance hardware.

                Originally posted by BlackStar View Post
                If I were buying a pure Linux laptop or desktop now, I would be getting an Intel that's for certain.
                True. But AMD is not bad on laptops - except power management and 3D in terms of performance.

                Originally posted by BlackStar View Post
                I can certainly understand where you are standing. Myself, I just switched to Windows instead. Fglrx is really not good at all, and even appears to be getting worse (in the last 12 months, suspend has been broken, Gnome Shell still doesn't work, Xvba has gotten worse, and now Xv has started to crash). Radeon is great if it covers your needs, but lack of video acceleration and power management hurts.
                You either dump AMD or dump Linux.
                Unlike you, I dumped former - because thats not linux betraying you.
                The later is exactly what Microsoft/AMD(marketing & management) want for you to do.

                @RealNC: Not much time ago, a friend of mine had similar choice for spending 300€.
                As Bridgeman mentioned, AMD does not want you buying their high-end cards for opensource driver; fglrx definately not a choice, so because AMD did not like money, we decided for 2gb version of 560ti, instead of 2gb hd6950.

                Thats a sour thing to watch: an opensource graphics innovator, not properly backing-up opensource driver, not interested in selling hardware, not interested in YOUR money.
                Still remeber - nvidia can drop binary any day. But you have those windowze users to dump your card to. Like.... Blackstar

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                  I find that Intel is actually the best solution for the non-gamer. It has good performance for compositing desktops and also video acceleration which enhances the battery life on laptops. But if you want to run commercial 3D games, especially the so called "AAA titles", with all their eye candy and smooth framerates, Intel is the last thing you want. Which leaves ATI and NVidia and their binary drivers (forget the open drivers; not playing at 1920x1080 with as near to 60FPS as possible is not doing it.) And when it comes to binary drivers, NVidia wins. Having VDPAU and what seems the best support from Wine simply sounds like the better option.
                  Yep! (char limit)

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
                    @RealNC: Not much time ago, a friend of mine had similar choice for spending 300€.
                    As Bridgeman mentioned, AMD does not want you buying their high-end cards for opensource driver; fglrx definately not a choice, so because AMD did not like money, we decided for 2gb version of 560ti, instead of 2gb hd6950.

                    Thats a sour thing to watch: an opensource graphics innovator, not properly backing-up opensource driver, not interested in selling hardware, not interested in YOUR money.
                    At the end of the day, it would seem that AMD treats Linux more like a second-class citizen than NVidia. Not that this isn't justified. They have their numbers on how many Linux users buy their hardware; the vast majority of their income comes from Windows users. So it is justified that their Linux support is lacking. Do not forget that they're a business, not a charity organization. Catalyst for Linux is buggy and lacks timely updates while their open source driver lacks tons of features and is very slow.

                    So it seems that NVidia, even though they also make their money from Windows users, seems more committed to Linux support. They introduced a video accel architecture and supported it from day one, they work closely with Linux users and release beta drivers and actively try to fix bugs and they're quick with new X.Org and kernel updates.

                    And they support FreeBSD too! I was impressed when I discovered that they provide their binary driver for FreeBSD and even Solaris. I'm personally not looking for open source support. I'm looking for *Linux* support. And they do that very well, so I feel like they actually deserve my money. They work hard for it, even though they don't have much reason to considering their paying Unix customers are only interested in workstation-type stuff. But they still come through and provide good Linux/Desktop/Multimedia features.

                    Well, when they stop doing that, then they'll also stop deserving my money, meaning I won't be buying any more cards from them. Fair enough, I think.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Lame ATI drivers & Corporate astroturfing.....

                      Hi RealNC,

                      welcome to nVidia driver heaven. Your reward for purchasing this hardware, is that it will work as advertised! Hell, the driver updates even have notes!!!! *Love* my GTX-570.

                      As for the other team, enough of the rhetoric already, just support your dam hardware so those whom purchase it can use it. Yeah I know, "to hard basket." Now for a millions and one excuses and legions of fan boy zombies!

                      Reaches for BFG! It's hunting time!

                      Kano, your a legend, keep it up! :-)

                      Latters & tea and sympathies to the red team.....

                      GreekGeek :-)

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                        At the end of the day, it would seem that AMD treats Linux more like a second-class citizen than NVidia. Not that this isn't justified. They have their numbers on how many Linux users buy their hardware; the vast majority of their income comes from Windows users. So it is justified that their Linux support is lacking. Do not forget that they're a business, not a charity organization.
                        Thats just not correct! Linux is about opensource development that brings by far more choice, security and options!! Linux can do anything windoze can do and much much more! You want your game for linux? No problem - every single piece in gaming stack is HERE! You want to distribute your game? No problem - package management and even desura are here! You want to distribute proprietary game (which model is not on paar to FLOSS; but - windows uses SO MUCH GPL and BSD, this question is just ethical, not technical) - NO PROBLEM!

                        I see no reason to prefer windows over linux, except.... THE CARD YOU PURCHASE HAS PUNY DRIVERS BECAUSE CARD MANUFACTURER DOES NOT CARE. You are BUYING their CARD, so you have RIGHT TO RECIEVE SUPPORT FOR OS YOU USE! Linux is MAINSTREAM OS!!

                        As a MANUFACTURER you are either INTERESTED IN THAT MARKET SEGMENT, or NOT. We are not talking about ANY charity! You are voting with MONEY.

                        The main difference between my position and AMD current position is that I expect "opensource" attribute to become a BONUS together with existing attributes, like performance, hardware support range, features, software stack support. You can sacrifice SOME for the other, but you will NOT sacrifice COMPANY SUPPORT behind "opensource" attributed driver.

                        This is what Intel does.

                        AMD on the other hand wants opensource to be some kind of fall-back, legacy hardware driver. Their official position is that opensource WILL NOT bring them more card sales! Hence they keep opensource crew at 4 members! They say linux market is 1%. They also say amount of engineers working on windows driver is 1000. Whats 1% from 1000? And for lack of ANY further interest in linux, they even refuse to provide ANY kind of backtracking mechanism, which means they DO NOT CARE for opensource driver as being ANY keypoint to their SELLING.

                        Now if you start reading previous paragraph BACKWARDS you will see what they SHOULD do to gain more linux sales!

                        You say - there is no apples here.. I have hunger - I want to buy some(shows money), Im 1% of population of earth - other live in city smoges.

                        They justify it as following:
                        - it is desert 25 kilometers till river
                        - the river has many alligators
                        - we have no money to get there too
                        - you should go live in smog city
                        See? They just justify their position with situation. This is not called "development" or "envolvement" or "progress". This is called ignorance.
                        --- we do not care!

                        But they *should* be doing it this way:
                        - how much of you are here?
                        - how much will it cost to lay pipes and kill aligators and plant trees?
                        - can you start signing for every apple we sell you, that you would like to eat it in desert?
                        ... watching response to expendetures, moduling situation
                        -> carrying out the plan: laying pipes, selling apples, getting MORE profit as desert becomes GREEN. Due to THEIR ACTION.
                        or
                        -> officially stating we sell apples only in cities and allowing OTHER to recieve profit.

                        Lets sum up:
                        they refuse to do statistics or any kind of feedback
                        they refuse to see opensource as selling point at any point in future or today
                        they refuse to stand behind opensource driver except funding 4-5 people that simply have NO PHYSICAL ability to back it up on paar with fglrx
                        they refuse to give you ability to vote with your money

                        Where will their opensource driver do good for you? When you purchase VERY OLD card, and even then it will not be completely backed-up (company support?).

                        From my point of view, they are just tunnel-visioned or ignorant, or both. If Intel introduces own discrete GPU or APU modular accelerator in form of slotted PCIE card - intel will be driving all linux sales!
                        Last edited by crazycheese; 02-08-2012, 03:51 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
                          Thats just not correct! Linux is about opensource development that brings by far more choice, security and options!!
                          I don't see how Linux is about open source. It's about doing with it whatever you want to. You are not required to be open source if you want to support Linux. Open source is a good thing (I provide most of my own work under an open source license), but not mandatory.

                          Linux can do anything windoze can do and much much more!
                          No one said otherwise. I prefer Linux not because it's open source, but because it's better than Windows, at least for my needs and uses.

                          You are BUYING their CARD, so you have RIGHT TO RECIEVE SUPPORT FOR OS YOU USE! Linux is MAINSTREAM OS!!
                          You only have the right to receive support for whatever was promised to you. If you buy something that advertises Linux support, then you have the right to that support. If Linux is not mentioned, then Linux support is not one of your rights.
                          Last edited by RealNC; 02-08-2012, 03:41 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                            You only have the right to receive support for whatever was promised to you. If you buy something that advertises Linux support, then you have the right to that support. If Linux is not mentioned, then Linux support is not one of your rights.
                            This is why I asked Bridgeman to STEP BEHIND THE OPENSOURCE DRIVER at some time. He was like "Eh?"
                            Nvidia supports Linux. Gigabyte supports ONLY windows - which is why I never buy Gigabyte.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                              I find that Intel is actually the best solution for the non-gamer. It has good performance for compositing desktops and also video acceleration which enhances the battery life on laptops. But if you want to run commercial 3D games, especially the so called "AAA titles", with all their eye candy and smooth framerates, Intel is the last thing you want. Which leaves ATI and NVidia and their binary drivers (forget the open drivers; not playing at 1920x1080 with as near to 60FPS as possible is not doing it.) And when it comes to binary drivers, NVidia wins. Having VDPAU and what seems the best support from Wine simply sounds like the better option.
                              What are you talking about?

                              AMD/ATI with open source Linux divers beats the socks off Intel in terms of bang-for-buck.

                              Both Intel and AMD/ATI have open source drivers for Linux. Intel's drivers are written by Intel, and Intel set the direction for them. AMD/ATI drivers are written by the Xorg community and by AMD employees. This is far more of a true open source development.

                              Other than that difference, and the far better bang-for-buck hardware for AMD/ATI GPUs, other aspects of the open source drivers are more or less the same. Intel drivers are no further along in terms of function or capability. AMD/ATI are no less stable. Both drivers are part of, and delivered with, the Linux kernel itself, and so they don't break with a kernel update. Both drivers implement KMS, and so will eventually be able to run Wayland.

                              Here is the Feature Matrix for the AMD/ATI open source driver:
                              http://www.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature

                              Here is the equivalent list for the Intel driver
                              http://www.x.org/wiki/IntelGraphicsDriver

                              The Intel driver has better support for video decode. Video Decode (XvMC/VDPAU/VA-API) using the 3D engine is still a work in progress for the Radeon driver. So far it is only partly in place, but eventually it will support VDPAU, which the Intel driver does not.

                              Other than that there is, essentially, nothing to chose between them, other than the facts that AMD/ATI is far better hardware and has more community participation and more open governance development.
                              Last edited by hal2k1; 02-08-2012, 04:05 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by hal2k1 View Post
                                What are you talking about?

                                AMD/ATI with open source Linux divers beats the socks off Intel in terms of bang-for-buck.
                                I was under the impression that power management and GPU accelerated MPEG video works best on Intel drivers. Which is why Intel looks like the better option for laptops.


                                Both Intel and AMD/ATI have open source drivers for Linux. Intel's drivers are written by Intel, and Intel set the direction for them. AMD/ATI drivers are written by the Xorg community and by AMD employees. This is far more of a true open source development.
                                True open source development doesn't impact the importance of power management and video acceleration on saving lots of battery power.

                                Intel drivers are no further along in terms of function or capability.
                                You mean to say that Intel also lacks power management and video acceleration? OK, I didn't know that. From what I've been reading here, Intel drivers were supporting those extremely important features.

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