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  • Well if you want a system with ati graphics you can buy now xbox 360 and next year a ps4 (even x86 compatible). But if you want to buy a gfx card for Linux gaming ati is maybe not the best choice. But even if 1% of ati users would not buy ati but would choose nvidia because of better linux drivers that would not change anything. Linux is definitely a small market, however nvidia seems to be more successfull (and even has got drivers for fbsd). Basically ati could learn from nvidia if they would not be so fixed in their decision they made in the past. And there are several examples of what could be better:

    a) nobody needs 12 drivers release a year. not even win users, those need drivers with specific fixes for games if problems are there. ati cares about those bugs and releases many preview/hotfix drivers for win. in case of rage it took very long to fix it for any arch on any card, most likely because of limited opengl knowledge. in that area nvidia seems to shine much more.

    b) in case of regressions and with the scheduled driver releases as exuse it takes ages to fix those. something introduced in 11-12 will be fixed 12-4, that is "normal", sometimes it can be 11 month as well. best: forget all prepared releases in advance, those will be outdated the day of release. if nobody would wait for a bugfix then all drivers would be the same more or less, then you don't need updates. if somebody really wants a fix then this time frame is too long.

    c) if there IS a bug fixed driver then this is usally without signature file. Ok, i know how to workaround that since the beginning, but why use it at all? absolutely nobody will use a driver with a permanent logo. next is the pci-id list embedded in the control file and the aticonfig tool which show a slightly different logo/watermark. if you are lucky you can use a control file from another "supported" driver for your hardware to get rid of it, but if you have got absolutely latest graphics cards which are usually even pretty expensive then you really ask yourself why on earth is there a logo which was never seen on win? It should be known since the introduction of atom bios into the oss drivers that fglrx is a generic driver for a certain range of chips. even if a driver was not tested on a specific card there is no reason to show a HUGE warning that it was not tested. thats useless as it usually "works" if tested or not before.

    d) new xserver / kernel support. well this is not covered by a-c but has to do which distro is a first class citizen in the ati universe. ubuntu seems to be the preferred distro and as long as ubuntu runs. sometimes u got a prelease driver that nobody else gets, is that the correct way? when you look at u 12.04 it looks that u fears that they will not get a fglrx release suitable for xserver 1.12. therefore u uses a really frankenstein xserver which allows fglrx to run. If u would ship 1.12 fglrx would most likely already have got support for it.

    so what ati should do: follow upstream! nvidia is a good example that it could be done in reasonable time. ati does not even manage to patch the kernel module for newer point releases of 3.2.x (and 3.3). also new xservers should be supported at least since rc1 (if the changes are bigger maybe rc2). it is nice to see that the oss developers push upstream changes but it is bad to see that fglrx holds back those improvements for the masses just by ignorance. if fglrx would adopt faster to xserver changes (kernel changes could be patched in serveral cases using community patches) everything would be better. ubuntu is one huge distribution but it is not the only one. fglrx is definitely unfair that way. so please follow upstream development and now just ubuntu releases, that does not make sense for generic linux drivers.

    ati cards could be much better for linux users if all issues would be corrected.
    Last edited by Kano; 04-01-2012, 04:08 PM.

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    • I don't understand...what if i pull a laptop out of the bin which has an amd gpu? should i put it back in the bin and post a rant on a forum? Wouldn't it be more productive to file/post bugs than write over dramatic cries of goodbye?

      stay tuned for next weeks episode of the thread that wont die.....

      [EDIT] I seem to be a senior member now - i demand a pension!
      Last edited by D0pamine; 04-01-2012, 11:17 PM.

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      • Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
        This is not windows forum, fyi. Go anandtech or somewhere else where you can dump your boredom to between game sessions. To me, every AMD user who has windows because of his crappy card, and who thinks its ok, just sucks. Have a nice day.
        You have the perfect username. I'm a bit jealous, actually. Mine's just a silly character name I used in a MUD once. Yours, sir, is a poetic masterpiece. Never have I seen a username that impeccably embodies the spirit of the entirety of one's posts.

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        • Originally posted by D0pamine View Post
          I don't understand...what if i pull a laptop out of the bin which has an amd gpu? should i put it back in the bin and post a rant on a forum? Wouldn't it be more productive to file/post bugs than write over dramatic cries of goodbye?
          Bugs have been filed, of course. They stay for about a year, then they get closed because the driver is considered outdated and you're asked to try a new driver version. The bug is still there in the new version. This continues for 6 years, at which point you stop being their customer.

          Any further questions?

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          • Originally posted by elanthis View Post
            You have the perfect username. I'm a bit jealous, actually. Mine's just a silly character name I used in a MUD once. Yours, sir, is a poetic masterpiece. Never have I seen a username that impeccably embodies the spirit of the entirety of one's posts.
            The difference is his posts makes sense and are more than bunch of FUD mixed with theory.

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            • Originally posted by RealNC View Post
              Bugs have been filed, of course. They stay for about a year, then they get closed because the driver is considered outdated and you're asked to try a new driver version. The bug is still there in the new version. This continues for 6 years, at which point you stop being their customer.

              Any further questions?

              You mean nvidia or ati now? believe me nvidia has bugs that are ignored too so use the free driver.... nv vs radeon ... no contest really

              Comment


              • Originally posted by D0pamine View Post
                You mean nvidia or ati now? believe me nvidia has bugs that are ignored too so use the free driver.... nv vs radeon ... no contest really
                ATI. With NVidia, I only posted one bug in their forums, another guy confirmed, and an NVidia employee then chipped in trying to reproduce the issue (even though I was using an exotic distro - Gentoo.)

                My impression so far with NVidia is that they actually prefer to communicate with their community, like, you know, human beings. ATI usually stays silent or offers some very official-looking walls of text. My guess is that ATI has a USSR-like bureaucracy system in place or something, lol :-/

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                • Originally posted by D0pamine View Post
                  You mean nvidia or ati now? believe me nvidia has bugs that are ignored too so use the free driver.... nv vs radeon ... no contest really
                  Well, I don't understand your question: Are you stating that nouveau is much worse than radeon or the opposite?
                  If you're stating that nouveau is still far behind radeon, you're wrong... ATM, nouveau is almost catching up radeon in a lot of things (except maybe on 2D acceleration, which I don't care too much, as for that I've an Intel SB IGP)... One of the most important things that nouveau, for instance, already does better than radeon in some situations (and as I've a nVidia optimus laptop) is power management... If I buy a new laptop with ATI hybrid graphics, my laptop will consume a lot of power and heat, whereas it seems nouveau (personal experience) already uses (at time of my Archbang install) a relatively lower power profile... that doesn't heat my laptop too much...

                  Btw, I know by the nvnews forums that there are problems with nVidia... one of them (and I think it's a shame), is that we have to install a community-based (unsupported?) program to use Optimus (Bumblebee), but aside of that, it was easy for me running my laptop with Bumblebee+nVidia Hybrid Graphics (now with the proprietary driver)...

                  Cheers
                  Last edited by evolution; 04-02-2012, 09:21 AM. Reason: missing text

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                  • Originally posted by evolution View Post
                    Well, I don't understand your question: Are you stating that nouveau is much worse than radeon or the opposite?
                    If you're stating that nouveau is still far behind radeon, you're wrong... ATM, nouveau is almost catching up radeon in a lot of things (except maybe on 2D acceleration, which I don't care too much, as for that I've an Intel SB IGP)... One of the most important things that nouveau, for instance, already does better than radeon in some situations (and as I've a nVidia optimus laptop) is power management... If I buy a new laptop with ATI hybrid graphics, my laptop will consume a lot of power and heat, whereas it seems nouveau (personal experience) already uses (at time of my Archbang install) a relatively lower power profile... that doesn't heat my laptop too much...

                    Btw, I know by the nvnews forums that there are problems with nVidia... one of them (and I think it's a shame), is that we have to install a community-based (unsupported?) program to use Optimus (Bumblebee), but aside of that, it was easy for me running my laptop with Bumblebee+nVidia Hybrid Graphics (now with the proprietary driver)...

                    Cheers
                    So all drivers are garbage? That still doesn't justify over dramatic cries of goodbye ati

                    Goodbye ATI and hello nvidia? so swap buggy wine and power consumption issues for almost jocular 2d performace and graphical corruption if you're talking blob vs blob. Neither free driver is perfect either but i'll take the radeon driver over the nouveu driver anyday given the choice.

                    The problem is that there isn't always a choice... there are lots of nvidia and amd gpus in existance, yes you may choose your next laptop or gpu purchase based on what driver you think is best or which company is shafting you the least but that will not help getting my sisters laptop gpu working in a reasonable and stable way.

                    by the way i don't have power issues with the radeon driver as far as i know - which distro are you running?

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                    • Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                      ATI. With NVidia, I only posted one bug in their forums, another guy confirmed, and an NVidia employee then chipped in trying to reproduce the issue (even though I was using an exotic distro - Gentoo.)

                      My impression so far with NVidia is that they actually prefer to communicate with their community, like, you know, human beings. ATI usually stays silent or offers some very official-looking walls of text. My guess is that ATI has a USSR-like bureaucracy system in place or something, lol :-/
                      Gentoo is exotic now? I'm using gentoo now and i'm not on a beach sipping a cocktail.... not even eating a bounty...

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                      • Originally posted by D0pamine View Post
                        So all drivers are garbage? That still doesn't justify over dramatic cries of goodbye ati

                        Goodbye ATI and hello nvidia? so swap buggy wine and power consumption issues for almost jocular 2d performace and graphical corruption if you're talking blob vs blob. Neither free driver is perfect either but i'll take the radeon driver over the nouveu driver anyday given the choice.

                        The problem is that there isn't always a choice... there are lots of nvidia and amd gpus in existance, yes you may choose your next laptop or gpu purchase based on what driver you think is best or which company is shafting you the least but that will not help getting my sisters laptop gpu working in a reasonable and stable way.

                        by the way i don't have power issues with the radeon driver as far as i know - which distro are you running?
                        Yes, unfortunately (and you know), all linux drivers have a flaw for some reason, but proprietary nVidia, personally, is the one with less flaws. I think xorg devs should do like Micro$oft in this chapter: If they want their drivers or "blobs" to work, they should comply to xorg specifications (like Microsoft do with DirectX) or "face the consequences". In exchange, xorg developers should start to release, for instance, xorg "LTS" releases, that worked with proprietary/FOSS drivers for a longer time (1 / 2 years, for instance). So, I agree with your statement that there isn't always a choice...

                        Well, before I bought my new laptop, I had a toshiba A200 with a HD2600 and ArchLinux x86_64. Every time I used FOSS ATI (I tried it last time on January this year), in the place I had my graphics card I couldn't stand my laptop in my lap and I had to switch to fglrx to make things less hot. Currently I still have an ATI card (4650AGP), but for me there are still some features FOSS ATI don't provide me. One of them (as this card is on a old desktop with a P4 processor) is the need of HW video decoding, and currently, I can only use it with fglrx + mplayer vaapi. If I play a 720p/1080p video with FOSS ATI, I'm not able to watch those videos... Furthermore, when I touch in the desktop case with FOSS ATI and fglrx, I sense (subjectively) some difference in the temperature... (distro of my desktop: Chakra Linux x86)

                        Cheers

                        p.s.: Look at my previous posts too... I just don't want to be "bashed" by the decisions I've taken, ok?
                        Last edited by evolution; 04-02-2012, 11:27 AM.

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                        • @ RealNC: Welcome to NVIDIA Land....

                          I've been mulling over building a couple boxes using AMD's "APU" chipsets but ultimately decided I wanted to get something done with them and went Intel+Intel/NVIDIA. NVIDIA's blob is rock solid, stable, and has bells and whistles. Bugs/features, nothing beat's NVIDIA's blob... nothing.

                          That being said, the blob isn't perfect. I have had ALOT of issues with NVIDIA blobs on my latest system, particularly around 2D performance. I have a NUMA box (Dual LGA1366) and that causes all kinds of memory addressing issues you don't see elsewhere. Finally things are stable/working after I've resolved several issues ( http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=110418 , http://phoronix.com/forums/showthrea...2D-Performance ) , but at the end of the day I've vowed against buying Tyan motherboards (when your mobo manufacturer refuses to fix BIOS bugs and instead tells you to buy new RAM? Really? I reluctantly did and still saw no improvements, and noone would take responsibility for that recommendation over there!), not against buying NVIDIA hardware.

                          I think the hardliner FOSS people need to acknowledge that theres more to Linux than "free"- its a technically superior and practical to use. I hope NVIDIA opens up (or at least provides doc) but their implementation is the most compatible and practical at this time, so I'm going to use that for the same reasons I use Linux- its better than the competition for my needs.

                          Best wishes!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by D0pamine View Post
                            So all drivers are garbage? That still doesn't justify over dramatic cries of goodbye ati
                            Oh common. This isn't "over dramatic". I'm just a user who expressed his frustration on a public forum meant for discussions around Linux and graphics hardware. I did nothing wrong. Take it for what it is, but don't go and apply the "overly dramatic" label on it.

                            Originally posted by D0pamine View Post
                            Gentoo is exotic now? I'm using gentoo now and i'm not on a beach sipping a cocktail.... not even eating a bounty...
                            Of course Gentoo is exotic. ATI chose not to support it. If Gentoo was mainstream, it would have been supported.

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                            • well i'm glad everything is sorted and everyone is happy now

                              I suppose the moral of this thread is to buy what you like based on whatever you think and GPU manufacturers are all bad because of their secrecy..

                              maybe the secrecy is the problem and not Xorg devs or communities

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                              • how can one kill that which does not live?

                                Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                                Oh common. This isn't "over dramatic". I'm just a user who expressed his frustration on a public forum meant for discussions around Linux and graphics hardware. I did nothing wrong. Take it for what it is, but don't go and apply the "overly dramatic" label on it.


                                Of course Gentoo is exotic. ATI chose not to support it. If Gentoo was mainstream, it would have been supported.
                                Sarah Palin refuses my calls and ignores love letters containing my pubic hair... I find this incredibly frustrating but i suppose frustration is part of life and maybe venting my frustrations on a public forum serves no purpose other than an anti-advertisement...

                                ...and gentoo is definitely mainstream, its 10 years old and the gentoo community has arguably done more to further development of FLOSS than any other community. ATI may not even recognize gentoo exists but fglrx works fine on it as does the radeon driver and i don't have power or heat issues ..maybe because the fan isn't clogged with pubic hair

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