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  • [Rant] Another one that joined the green "Club"...

    I know this thread is a bit dead now, but I've read it quite some time ago and I'd like to share my 2c.

    After almost 15 years using AMD/ATI cards (on both Windows and Linux OS's), now I'm stepping out too... My laptop with a Radeon HD 2600 burned and I urgently needed a new laptop.

    First of all, thanks to M$ and Intel, 99% of laptops (at least in Portugal) have hybrid c****y muxless graphics. So, if you want performance on a laptop, you're forced to use either nVidia Optimus or ATI BACON. That was my first obstacle on Linux, as nobody could ask me if ATI muxless was supported or not on Linux (and I didn't want to change the distro I was using (Arch x86_64)). So I chose a laptop with nVidia optimus (as it seems I can make it work more or less properly with bumblebee+bbswitch (I'm going to rant about this later...)).

    Secondly, my scientific apps (MATLAB, for instance) use specifically CUDA and not OpenCL (I think it's a shame, but that's developers fault too...).

    Finally, and now my "rant":

    a) 6 years later and we still don't have proper support using FOSS drivers or Catalyst. It's very basic at best. Power management is AWFUL (on desktops that's not a problem but that kills a laptop's battery life). 3D performance is still BAD (I don't know how nouveau has managed to catch up radeon in terms of 3D performance, is it due to ATI graphics architecture being much more difficult to program?). 2D acceleration, although works for basic compositing and such, I STILL can't use it for decoding basic things such as Full-HD videos on Linux (XV s***s btw). On lower-power systems such as ultrabooks, netbooks and HTPCs (with AMD APUs, OC), that should've been AMD's nr.1 priority on Linux, as a lot of people use HTPCs and netbooks for watching videos, without caring about codecs. Even on such c***y systems that use GPUs such as Intel HD2xxx/HD3xxx, I've better 2D support than any of ATI current solutions. I won't blame Bridgman and other ATI/AMD/Xorg Linux developers (such as Alex Duscher or agf5d), as I recognize their hard work for trying to make ATI/AMD hardware useful on Linux, (and I really know how hard must be be programming os ASICs), but they're doing something almost "impossible".

    b) I'm also going to rant about Linux users' mentality because I simply don't understand this. A company that has fulfilled to support its hardware by releasing documentation to linux developers, why there's almost no one supporting / helping them after 6 years? Furthermore, when things go wrong why are 99% of the time ATI/AMD developers the ones to blame? To support my argument, I'll talk about the sorry situation of muxless hybrid graphics + Proprietary Drivers: I know that AMD/ATI has been trying to support muxless ATI+Intel hybrid cards with Catalyst. If it was AMD/ATI that wouldn't support (hybrid graphics) I bet no one would try to help them make it work on Linux. But in nVidia's case, no! That's always someone's else fault... Not nVidia's fault for not listening to its users... And the biggest irony is that community has done a great work trying to support nVidia optimus with both nouveau and nVidia's proprietary driver. And where's someone trying to make things work, for instance, in my distro of choice (Arch Linux) (or other distos), when ATI proprietary drivers already give us some kind of support to AMD+Intel muxless laptops? (Vi0L0, I think you should see Chakra's PKGBUILDs for using a recent Catalyst with PowerXPress on a Arch-based distro). It seems Linux users mentality didn't almost change albeit ATI committed support for providing documentation to the Linux community, and that s**ks.

    Summarizing, these situations made me buy a Mid-to-High-End laptop with a nVidia optimus GFX (GeForce 555M). I'm really sad to abandon ATI's "ship", but there were some constraints that forced me to do it.

    My 2 cents, and sorry if I was harsh.
    3V0LUT10N

    p.s.: I wish the best of luck for ATI/AMD open-source driver developers...

    Comment


    • Good for you

      For some reason I keep buying cheap computers like my Acer 722 that have ATI video. It's always a struggle too.

      I think that if enough people tell them "good bye" they will make a better driver.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by homerhomer View Post
        For some reason I keep buying cheap computers like my Acer 722 that have ATI video. It's always a struggle too.

        I think that if enough people tell them "good bye" they will make a better driver.
        Doubt that, AMD clearly isn't interested in their Linux-userbase. Releases of documentation is nice, but it feels more like AMD is trying to make others do THEIR work. It's their hardware afterall.

        Linux-userbase is nothing compared to Windows gaming-community which is the biggest income for AMD when it comes to Radeons.

        Generally AMD-hardware works ok in Linux if 2D is ONLY thing you need, but that's not the case with many users. I switched to Nvidia GTX560Ti from RadeonHD4850 with my computer-upgrade in august 2011 and it sure made things lots easier.

        Also, dunno what's with certain person's claims & absurd lies in this topic. Looking the world through AMD-glasses (or with any fanboy-glasses) isn't very healthy.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by RealNC View Post
          I finally switched to NVidia (I ordered a GTX 560 Ti). [blah blah childish ranting]
          You create a thread to tell people that you're parting with ATi products..? You mean absolutely nothing in general, no offense, but it's true. No one cares about your daily life inquiries except for your friends and family, and you're 1 out of millions of ATi users. Your ego level is too high, but so is mine for registering here just to post this. I guess we're kind of even. Okay, this is creepy, gotta go.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by evolution View Post
            First of all, thanks to M$ and Intel, 99% of laptops (at least in Portugal) have hybrid c****y muxless graphics. So, if you want performance on a laptop, you're forced to use either nVidia Optimus or ATI BACON.
            No, that is true only if you want both performance and an Intel CPU.

            Originally posted by evolution View Post
            That was my first obstacle on Linux, as nobody could ask me if ATI muxless was supported or not on Linux
            You wanted to say nobody could answer? I have no interest in switchable graphics, but from reading the comments here on Phoronix it looks like AMD is the only one even trying to support them on Linux, and it actually works.

            Originally posted by evolution View Post
            (and I didn't want to change the distro I was using (Arch x86_64)).
            What's the distribution got to do with the drivers? It can only affect how easy it would be to install/configure those drivers.

            Originally posted by evolution View Post
            So I chose a laptop with nVidia optimus (as it seems I can make it work more or less properly with bumblebee+bbswitch (I'm going to rant about this later...)).
            It sounds like you enjoy a good chalenge

            Originally posted by evolution View Post
            Secondly, my scientific apps (MATLAB, for instance) use specifically CUDA and not OpenCL (I think it's a shame, but that's developers fault too...).
            Well, you could either blame the developers or blame yourself for choosing to use it, but not AMD.

            Comment


            • @evolution

              Just pick a laptop with a single GPU. Be it older Intel cpu + discrete, current AMD cpu, current Intel cpu without discrete. They haven't exactly disappeared from the market.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Ansla View Post
                No, that is true only if you want both performance and an Intel CPU.
                Yes, that was what I wanted. I needed the best performance available for a laptop, so I bought one with an Intel processor + dedicated (nVidia) graphics card. Furthermore, some of my programs only work on Window$ (no money for Linux software licences in my university) and CUDA ...

                Originally posted by Ansla View Post
                You wanted to say nobody could answer? I have no interest in switchable graphics, but from reading the comments here on Phoronix it looks like AMD is the only one even trying to support them on Linux, and it actually works.
                I know about it, I even said the work done by ATI/AMD/Xorg developers is really the best they can do for the resources currently available for Linux graphics drivers... But currently I'm not interested in using open-source drivers in a recent laptop, because, as I said before, it would "fry" my laptop (and battery life), and, I had to do disable the ATI graphics card if I wanted to use Linux properly, being left behind with a (crippled) low-end GPU on Linux (Intel HD3000). And I'm interested in having some 3D/GPGPU performance... Btw, my distro has documentation and gives some help for hybrid nVidia+Intel users, whereas there's no documentation for hybrid Intel+AMD users... and that was a factor I took in consideration...

                Originally posted by Ansla View Post
                What's the distribution got to do with the drivers? It can only affect how easy it would be to install/configure those drivers.
                Well, it depends from the distribution you use. For instance, in ubuntu and gentoo, you can install the proprietary Catalyst driver and use a tool such as "update-alternatives" or "eselect-opengl" to switch to the proper libGL library (mesa or ATI proprietary), whereas on the distro I use (Arch Linux), you've to symlink to the right libGL library each time you switch the graphics card, and that's not an easy thing to do... (Arch Linux Catalyst package maintainer has quitted to support catalyst with PowerXPress because of that, it seems... )

                Originally posted by Ansla View Post
                It sounds like you enjoy a good chalenge
                Well, I installed Arch (in dual-boot) and followed its guide of Bumblebee and I've everything working properly (even power management)... For me, the guide was almost trivial. And yes, I really like challenges!

                Originally posted by Ansla View Post
                Well, you could either blame the developers or blame yourself for choosing to use it, but not AMD.
                Well, I didn't blame AMD, as you can see in my first post in this thread. I'm blaming Linux Community -> HW developer relationship (not AMD FOSS driver developers) for not changing after 6 years of AMD OS efforts, I think there are "two weights, two measures" for AMD and nVidia, and Linux community still doesn't treat AMD fairly enough altough they have been providing documentation about their hardware in order to develop FOSS drivers. Furthermore, it seems FOSS nVidia (nouveau) drivers, even being reverse-engineered, are already catching-up AMD's OS efforts, and that's not a good thing for AMD.

                Furthermore, and as an informed consumer (I hope so), I buy my computers based on hardware, not "brands"... And I'm a bit sad of having to abandon AMD this time (the first one since my first computer), but when Linux community, the programs you use and the distro you want to use don't help you, sometimes you've to "change sides"...

                Finally, and BTW, I still have an old desktop with a HD4650AGP, and if someone wants help with AMD/ATI cards (with Catalyst), give me a call...

                Cheers

                p.s.: I appeal to Vi0L0 (if he still reads Phoronix threads), to look at the Chakra's CatalystPXP PKGBUILD to give support for AMD+Intel hybrid muxless laptops on Linux. I can't test it because I've switched sides, but it might be useful for people trying to use Intel+Catalyst on newer laptops...
                Last edited by evolution; 03-27-2012, 11:15 AM. Reason: adding info

                Comment


                • Originally posted by 8bitbubsy View Post
                  You create a thread to tell people that you're parting with ATi products..? You mean absolutely nothing in general, no offense, but it's true. No one cares about your daily life inquiries except for your friends and family, and you're 1 out of millions of ATi users. Your ego level is too high, but so is mine for registering here just to post this. I guess we're kind of even. Okay, this is creepy, gotta go.
                  So true. I am a regular reader here but i usually don't care to comment, i saw this a few weeks ago and wanted to say the same thing but didn't bother. Getting older/more mature usually means that you simply don't waste your time trying to put such persons in their place.

                  For what is worth, i am of the opinion that if someone wants to play the latest AAA PC games properly should have and AMD gpu paired with a Windows 7 desktop computer. Anything else is a waste. AMD simply has better hardware, and no amount of usual NVIDIA trickery will convince experienced gamers otherwise. But with todays gaming industry, even that is a total waste. Just buy an XBOX 360 and you are set. No need for a gaming pc anymore, all games are ports.

                  If you have Linux and want to game, then you are doing it wrong. Even the latest Wine doesn't support properly all games, has bugs, and a big performance hit compared to native Windows. Native Linux games suk and you don't need a 560Ti for them.

                  For every other Linux use case, the open source radeon drivers are fine. And are becoming better with every new release. Plus will enable amd users to jump to Wayland as soon as it is ready. So unlike the OP, i will continue to buy only amd GPU/APUs in the near future and will promote those to people, both for Windows and Linux usage.

                  Comment


                  • Everyone has the right to express his opinions publicly. I will not be censored, nor silenced and I will speak my mind freely. If what I say happens to trigger a fanboi reflex in you, I couldn't care less.

                    If others are allowed to post reviews and opinions about various products, so am I. Just because my name isn't Tom's Hardware doesn't mean that I have no right to make my thoughts public. My post expressed my disappointment with the functionality of a range of products I was using and how changing to another vendor's product improved things for me.

                    If anyone here thinks that doing so is wrong, too bad. The Internet supports and encourages the exchange of information and opinions. If you can't stand that, then go away. Nobody will miss you.

                    Comment


                    • The devs are to blame

                      The reason ATI has lost the war is that their drivers are so bad.

                      The closed source drivers cannot be changed. And neither apparently can the open-source ones. Because every single person who has tried to contribute to the driver has been sidelined.

                      So anyways to cut through all the crap let's get real here. Micro$oft own AMD's ass and they, like every other MS "partner" are doing their bit to make sure linux never, ever succeeds on the desktop.

                      This is not about anything except AMD carrying out their corporate policy. And this board is one of the public-facing elements of their strategy.

                      Comment


                      • I write in favour of Nvidia a lot in this forum, but not just because they have better cards. Actually I can make a 16 times more efficient card myself using opencores, a card with 1m transistors per 48-macs/hz when Nvida using 16m transistors (but the hardware must be open). The problem is that Amd cards are a failure on Linux, bad OpenGL, bad D3D to OGL translations, bad gpGpu. It is part of what I do to convince people to use Linux, but with an Amd card and Wine, usually they regret it and they fall back on Windows or a dual installation. That is the only bad thing for me, to be forced to use proprietary garbage. Closing knowledge and make it your property (patents for example), it is a crime against humanity and it is the battle of our century that we must win.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                          For what is worth, i am of the opinion that if someone wants to play the latest AAA PC games properly should have and AMD gpu paired with a Windows 7 desktop computer. Anything else is a waste. AMD simply has better hardware, and no amount of usual NVIDIA trickery will convince experienced gamers otherwise. But with todays gaming industry, even that is a total waste. Just buy an XBOX 360 and you are set. No need for a gaming pc anymore, all games are ports.

                          If you have Linux and want to game, then you are doing it wrong. Even the latest Wine doesn't support properly all games, has bugs, and a big performance hit compared to native Windows. Native Linux games suk and you don't need a 560Ti for them.
                          Your opinion is result of your experience. IF you use AMD, *this* is the opinion that comes out. *This* is what microsoft wants.

                          Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                          For what is worth, i am of the opinion that if someone wants to play the latest AAA PC games properly should have and AMD gpu paired with a Windows 7 desktop computer.
                          Wrong.
                          There is no such thing as "AAA PC games".
                          Also "AAA" does not mean it is anywhere good. Most of good games were not AAA.
                          AAA only means massive corporate resources were split on keyboard, which very often means closed platform, short life-time, lots of repeatitions, lack of anything original.

                          Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                          Windows 7 desktop computer.
                          Wrong.
                          Windows 7 is not a computer.

                          Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                          Just buy an XBOX 360 and you are set. No need for a gaming pc anymore, all games are ports.
                          Wrong.
                          Not all games are available on Xbox, maybe 10% of all.

                          Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                          AMD simply has better hardware, and no amount of usual NVIDIA trickery will convince experienced gamers otherwise.
                          Wrong.
                          AMD hardware is highly dependent upon driver (pre GCN) and GCN is not opensourced properly (was it ever?). Also, you are looking for good GFX bindings to graphics hardware, that is good working OpenGL. OpenGL within AMD drivers is worse than nvidia implementation.
                          So AMD is less compatible with Linux than Nvidia, no visual trickery.

                          Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                          If you have Linux and want to game, then you are doing it wrong.
                          Wrong.
                          You can game on DOS, Mac, Android, Linux, Windumbs, Iphone, SEGA.
                          Games are programs, so there are two ways to run them: native game is available or game is running emulated. Linux has native and can run games emulated, several thousands of titles.

                          Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                          Even the latest Wine doesn't support properly all games, has bugs, and a big performance hit compared to native Windows.
                          Wrong.
                          WINE supports MORE games than windows itself.
                          And as a bonus, the OS does not suck.
                          No performance hits.

                          Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                          Native Linux games suk and you don't need a 560Ti for them.
                          Wrong. No, but you. And a lot!
                          You do need very good card, if you want to play Xonotic or Alien Arena maxed.

                          Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                          For every other Linux use case, the open source radeon drivers are fine. And are becoming better with every new release. Plus will enable amd users to jump to Wayland as soon as it is ready. So unlike the OP, i will continue to buy only amd GPU/APUs in the near future and will promote those to people, both for Windows and Linux usage.
                          Wrong.
                          Which "other" Linux use case?
                          video acceleration was supported by nvidia long ago.
                          power managent too.
                          cuda too.
                          You mean for "frame buffer", like browsing your internets or office work? You dont need discrete card for this at all.

                          Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                          Plus will enable amd users to jump to Wayland as soon as it is ready. So unlike the OP, i will continue to buy only amd GPU/APUs in the near future and will promote those to people, both for Windows and Linux usage.
                          Wrong.
                          Noveau does not support Wayland?!
                          Or AMD catalyst supports Wayland?

                          Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                          So unlike the OP, i will continue to buy only amd GPU/APUs in the near future and will promote those to people, both for Windows and Linux usage.
                          Wrong.
                          Unlike the OP your are zombie, because all your "Linux usage" means basically - AMD sucks.
                          You should really try to "compare" instead of seeing linux in AMD-eyeglasses(tm).
                          Go spend like 150$ on nvidia hardware just to compare it with amd, then talk.

                          Comment


                          • @RealNC

                            No one censored you as far as i can tell. We just expressed the opinion that we don't give a fsck what you choose to buy.

                            @Crazycheese

                            Just lol. Just because i am bored doesn't mean i have to write a text wall to address the obvious wrong points you make. People in the forums have their own brains, they will use them. Have a nice day...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                              @RealNC
                              No one censored you as far as i can tell. We just expressed the opinion that we don't give a fsck what you choose to buy.
                              By "we" you mean all three of you. The discussion in this thread pretty much proves that your team of three is actually what the others don't give a fsck about.

                              But I'm sure you'll continue to reply even though you pretend to not care.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                                Just lol. Just because i am bored doesn't mean i have to write a text wall to address the obvious wrong points you make. People in the forums have their own brains, they will use them. Have a nice day...
                                This is not windows forum, fyi. Go anandtech or somewhere else where you can dump your boredom to between game sessions. To me, every AMD user who has windows because of his crappy card, and who thinks its ok, just sucks. Have a nice day.

                                Comment

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