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  • #71
    Originally posted by bridgman View Post
    Do you really mean regression, ie "performance was better on configuration XYZ with an earlier version of the driver" ? If so, do you happen to remember which version showed the higher performance ?

    If the "regression" is just that you expect a 4850 to be faster than a 4670 but you're not seeing that I would call it odd but not a regression.
    I have not done enough tests to be able to say for sure that it is pure regression.

    yes right now its just odd very strange

    for me it is a sign that it is a bug in the driver.

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    • #72
      Originally posted by bridgman View Post
      Do you really mean regression, ie "performance was better on configuration XYZ with an earlier version of the driver" ? If so, do you happen to remember which version showed the higher performance ?

      If the "regression" is just that you expect a 4850 to be faster than a 4670 but you're not seeing that I would call it odd but not a regression.
      Well the opengl render in used in savage 2 and HoN has always been inferior to the D3D one. You get the same opengl performance in windows and linux.
      However it was on pair with what you got if you ran the windows client with D3D in wine before fglrx got opengl 3/4 support.
      With my 4870 card I had 120 fps in the menus (max) and around 60-90 fps ingame. But after the drivers upped the opengl support from 2.1 to ~3.3 i get 60fps in the menus and ~30fps ingame and the game shutters/laggs (has mini pauses) like crazy.
      Now the wine version with D3D runs smoother and i get at least 40 fps more than I get with the native version.
      I've pointed this out to the S2 devs and we even had a big thread on the forums about it. But it seems like S2 wont hire a opengl programmer to rework the opengl render.

      I think that Q might have a point about the opengl render using outdated stuff as it that would explain why the the fps got worse when you upped support and perhaps removed some of the legacy optimization stuff?
      Perhaps it would be good if you, bridgman, could borrow one of your programmers/engineers for a short while to look into what happened between the 2.1 to 3.3 migration in the drivers and perhaps profile the HoN opengl render.

      Depending on what you'll find you can perhaps send an email to the S2 staff on behalf of AMD and tell them that they need to give the opengl render some love :P
      But they might perhaps ignore that also as the only updates that has come to the opengl render after the beta is to fix rendering bugs and no optimization what so ever.

      IIRC the version that this happened with was 10.5, 10.4 worked fine. I even created a bug in the unofficial ati bugtracker: http://ati.cchtml.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1824
      But it seems like the bug is deleted now.
      I tried to stick with the 10.4 version as long as possible. But with new xorg servers and what not I couldn't do so forever.
      Last edited by ZedDB; 09-13-2011, 03:44 PM.

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      • #73
        Originally posted by ZedDB View Post
        But it seems like S2 wont hire a opengl programmer to rework the opengl render.[...]
        Depending on what you'll find you can perhaps send an email to the S2 staff on behalf of AMD and tell them that they need to give the opengl render some love :P
        sure thats the solution AMD should pay a dev to fix the openGL renderer of the S2-engine.

        that would be good marketing

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        • #74
          Originally posted by bridgman View Post
          Do you really mean regression, ie "performance was better on configuration XYZ with an earlier version of the driver" ? If so, do you happen to remember which version showed the higher performance
          if you read ZedDB's post it is a regression. he point out that the old driver for openGL2.1 only do not have this regression.

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          • #75
            Originally posted by Qaridarium View Post
            sure thats the solution AMD should pay a dev to fix the openGL renderer of the S2-engine.

            that would be good marketing
            While this would be really noble of them I don't think AMD could afford to hire people to fix other companies buggy/badly implemented opengl backends.
            However it seems like the ones in charge over the priorities at S2 doesn't think it would be worth the money to further improve the client for mac/linux users as most of their users probably run windows.
            I even went so far as to ask S2 to open up their render backend API so I could improve the render myself. As the current render backends are stored in .so/.dll files it seems like it would not be that hard to do.
            But of course they wont do that either.

            I don't think it will change anything even if AMD did write them a letter along the lines of:
            "It has come to our attention that your opengl render backend sucks, fix it!"
            But it can't hurt to try...

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            • #76
              Originally posted by ZedDB View Post
              I even went so far as to ask S2 to open up their render backend API so I could improve the render myself. As the current render backends are stored in .so/.dll files it seems like it would not be that hard to do.
              But of course they wont do that either.
              really i can not understand it why they won't do that ?

              its the easiest way to get an wood product and earn more customers.

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              • #77
                Why would they open up their IP to an unknown with no guarantee that improvements would be made and their IP wouldn't be used in another project? Legally they would be stupid to do that, especially while that code is still in use. If someone would want to continue down this path, best approach would be to offer up a NDA compiled by a lawyer, send it to them, get their lawyers to look at it, review the review (continue loop, spend money, until completion)...

                Legal issues aside, it would be nice of them to do that and have faith in ZedDB that he does indeed know what he's doing. Otherwise we'll have to wait until the K2 engine is no longer in use and hope they open it up like they did with the original Savage game.

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                • #78
                  Originally posted by storma View Post
                  Why would they open up their IP to an unknown with no guarantee that improvements would be made and their IP wouldn't be used in another project? Legally they would be stupid to do that, especially while that code is still in use. If someone would want to continue down this path, best approach would be to offer up a NDA compiled by a lawyer, send it to them, get their lawyers to look at it, review the review (continue loop, spend money, until completion)...
                  It worked well for Epic with UT99 when IIRC a modder wrote a better render in opengl than their own because they had opened up the render backend code with the SDK.
                  I don't really see how it would damage them to just release the source code to the opengl render .so file and a guide how to compile it. I seriously doubt that they have anything in there covered by patents/intellectual property.

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                  • #79
                    Another case

                    Hi to all!

                    I am a daily reader of phoronix news, but I don┤t go to the forums often. I just registered to summarize my experience on this matter just in case it is able to help someone.

                    First, I use Debian SID in a eight-core Opteron 2378 with 16 GB of RAM. As a graphic card I bought some time ago a passive cooled Radeon 4670, because I was looking to some simple gaming needs and a silent card.

                    The main use for my computer is experimentation, I try new software/techniques I can later deploy at work. From some time ago, the only 3D application I use is Heroes of Newerth. My desktop of choice is KDE, but I deactivated all the 3D effects.

                    Until fglrx 10.4, the performance was correct. I will not tell you it was awesome, because I didn┤t run windows at that moment and I can┤t compare. But I was able to play properly.

                    When I installed fglrx 10.5 the performance became abysmal. It was so bad that I quit playing HoN for long time. I kept it installed, and tried it sometimes with the new driver versions. After some months, I was able to play again with minimum settings.

                    What I found at start, was that my gameplay level was much worse and I tought "how bad I┤ve become, I┤m getting older!!". Then, I had to install windows 7 on that machine too to check some things. And I remembered HoN, so installed and tried it.

                    It was incredible. The default graphics were gorgeous in comparison, and the first game I played I found that the game was so fast that I always "overreacted". I was acting everytime too early, I was missing my Linux lag!!!! As everyone who plays this game knows, HoN is very fast paced and your reaction time is key. Now I understand my really bad level of play.

                    In conclusion, HoN in a Radeon 4670 is not playable even at minimum settings without any 3D desktop. So, at this moment, S2 doesn┤t have a "working native Linux client" with my hardware. I am so dissapointed I refuse to play the game again on those conditions, and for sure I will not be rebooting to Windows just for a quick fun.

                    I tried in a fast test HoN with wine. It is much faster, but as it usually happens with fglrx, the game presented graphic problems who made it unplayable.

                    On the other hand, AMD free driver strategy seems to be working. When Squeeze was released, I tried their free radeon driver with a mesa version I got from the experimental repo (┐maybe 7.9?) and I was able to run the game!! It had some small problems, mainly the character and enemies were missing, but everything else was rendered correctly and fast enough.

                    I just hope that soon with the latest r600g performance improvements it becomes playable I will test it again when I get some time.

                    PD: BTW, thanks to bridgman, airlied and all the others involved in the radeon driver. It feels good to see how the situation is improving from some years ago

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                    • #80
                      and thats another hd 4xxx card
                      like i said before i dont have those problems with 5770

                      so is there anyone with the same slow perf problems with hd 5xxx series cards?

                      or im just one hell a lucky guy who dont have the probs.

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