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  • #46
    Contrary to your statement, I had composite slow down 3d performance on opensource drivers with hd4770
    As I said, I'm talking about fglrx having a perf boost with compiz enabled, not the opensource drivers.

    So whats your problem? Comparing two different evils?
    No problem at all, I just think Ati is doing a better job than Nvidia with their opensource stack, also because I don't think Ati can ever

    cut the headroom and independence
    of their radeon driver. Since it's open-source, if anyone has a problem with the way it's being developed, it can still be forked, while Noveau will never see the benefits of released specs, and can never have an alternative to reverse engeneering. You said everyone is free to choose, I'd say everyone except the Nouveau devs.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by vervelover View Post
      As I said, I'm talking about fglrx having a perf boost with compiz enabled, not the opensource drivers.
      Im definitely not fglrx fan, since version 8.6(if I remember correctly) crashed the system when switching terminal windows... And opensource radeon is currently not my choice.

      Originally posted by vervelover View Post
      No problem at all, I just think Ati is doing a better job than Nvidia with their opensource stack, also because I don't think Ati can ever
      Sure.

      Originally posted by vervelover View Post
      of their radeon driver. Since it's open-source, if anyone has a problem with the way it's being developed, it can still be forked, while Noveau will never see the benefits of released specs, and can never have an alternative to reverse engeneering. You said everyone is free to choose, I'd say everyone except the Nouveau devs.
      You missed the point that opensource amd drivers need firmware blobs in order to operate, so noveau is more clean opensource than radeon.
      Also, I do not think AMD will allow features in radeon that will compromise the need for fglrx. Like efficient power management and performance improvements that would make radeon outperform fglrx in 3D and make it useless (but its wild guess).
      Every time I rised an idea to make radeon opensource driver officially supported part of amd and to put its development on monetary basis (cause the main income for driver development comes from card selling, yes I know amd produces only chips and PCB design - they still need them sold). Every time amd expressed its ok with current state, current development rate and current performance of radeon compared to fglrx.
      Well, if fglrx is their best bet, then Im better with nvidia. But this is only due to my usage scenario. If you find opensource radeon sufficient for you, than I congratulate you.

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      • #48
        Cool, so many things I disagree with in a single post

        Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
        You missed the point that opensource amd drivers need firmware blobs in order to operate, so noveau is more clean opensource than radeon.
        That's not a radeon vs nouveau thing as much as a hardware thing -- the fact that AMD GPUs keep pretty much all of their microcode in RAM while other vendors build most of it into the chip. If our microcode was burned into the chip where you couldn't see it would we somehow be more "open source friendly" ?

        I see the same thing with CPUs -- processors which don't have upgradable microcode are somehow felt to be "more open source friendly" than processors where you can update the microcode after purchase. This whole "if we have to see the microcode it's evil but if it's out of sight it's OK" perspective baffles me -- it's like the belief that building a wall around a resort so you can't see the poor people outside somehow makes the problem go away.

        Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
        Also, I do not think AMD will allow features in radeon that will compromise the need for fglrx. Like efficient power management and performance improvements that would make radeon outperform fglrx in 3D and make it useless (but its wild guess).
        Why would you even think this ? The only thing we have said w.r.t. performance is that BASED ON THE COMPLEXITY OF THE HARDWARE, THE SIZE OF THE COMMUNITY, AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPER STATEMENTS ABOUT THE TYPES OF OPTIMIZATIONS THEY WOULD AND WOULD NOT DO we expected the open drivers to run with approximately 60-70% of the fglrx driver's performance. I think it's fair to say that we would be ecstatic if the open source driver eliminated the need for fglrx in markets like workstation, but it seems unlikely given the magnitude of the task. When we don't release info it's because of IP or DRM reasons, certainly not a desire to hold back the open source driver.

        Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
        Every time I rised an idea to make radeon opensource driver officially supported part of amd and to put its development on monetary basis (cause the main income for driver development comes from card selling, yes I know amd produces only chips and PCB design - they still need them sold). Every time amd expressed its ok with current state, current development rate and current performance of radeon compared to fglrx.
        This is totally untrue. I said a couple of things, none of them even remotely close to your statement :

        1. if we put a mechanism in place to allocate development funds between proprietary and open source drivers based on the money we made from the two markets there was a serious chance that the outcome would be *less* funding for open source, not *more*

        2. even if the numbers worked out in favour of shifting relatively more funding to the open drivers at some point in the future I don't think we could afford to substantially reduce fglrx funding relative to the requirements of the markets it serves, so this really boils down to a "give me more money" request

        If we were happy with current state why would we have been working for years to bring open source driver support earlier in time and closer to hardware launch ? Why would we be working to release programming info in more areas ?

        If we were happy with current development rate why would we be hiring more developers ?

        How can you possibly twist a performance estimate based on the size of the development team relative to the domain complexity into a claim that "we are happy with driver performance" ?

        Can I ask a favour ? When you make claims like this please quote the statements where you think we said those things. I expect that will help both of us
        Last edited by bridgman; 09-08-2011, 09:01 AM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by bridgman View Post
          That's not a radeon vs nouveau thing as much as a hardware thing -- the fact that AMD GPUs keep pretty much all of their microcode in RAM while other vendors build most of it into the chip. If our microcode was burned into the chip where you couldn't see it would we somehow be more "open source friendly" ?
          http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item&px=OTQ4NA
          Nouveau has less to mess with microcode and blob loading. All three major graphics providers utilize proprietary hardware design, so .. less is more. Next step is uncloak microcode source, which is not to happen for both, so nouveau(not nvidia) wins as it does not have to inject blobs into memory. Nouveaus walls are a bit more distanced.

          Originally posted by bridgman View Post
          I see the same thing with CPUs -- processors which don't have upgradable microcode are somehow felt to be "more open source friendly" than processors where you can update the microcode after purchase. This whole "if we have to see the microcode it's evil but if it's out of sight it's OK" perspective baffles me -- it's like the belief that building a wall around a resort so you can't see the poor people outside somehow makes the problem go away.
          First step to freedom is open application, second are open libraries, kernel and drivers, third - open hardware. Hardwares bits and bytes are not referred as application due to it performing mostly technical low-level stuff normally not exceeding the level of the hardware part where it seats. This is why microcode in flashrom is referred much more to hardware functionality that doing same in driver. Sure, you load microcode on each boot, were others have it in ROM. Were there any microcode based keyboard keyloggers/spyware/viruses written so far? A driver that loads something closed source in memory on each boot..

          Originally posted by bridgman View Post
          Why would you even think this ? The only thing we have said w.r.t. performance is that BASED ON THE COMPLEXITY OF THE HARDWARE, THE SIZE OF THE COMMUNITY, AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPER STATEMENTS ABOUT THE TYPES OF OPTIMIZATIONS THEY WOULD AND WOULD NOT DO we expected the open drivers to run with approximately 60-70% of the fglrx driver's performance. I think it's fair to say that we would be ecstatic if the open source driver eliminated the need for fglrx in markets like workstation, but it seems unlikely given the magnitude of the task.
          Drivers are rather complex and they must adapt quickly to newer models/libraries which means it requires huge driving force. Driving force that may be achieved by:
          a) every single AMD card buyer hacking your card for better drivers
          b) a split of payment you get from each AMD card buyer when he purchases the card
          So, if you wanted opensource, you would make it happen. But instead we watch the clouds passing by.
          Was microsoft also watching clouds when they formed monopoly? Regarding the size of the market... Im sure they were planning its future size, not current. Cause currently there were just clouds

          Originally posted by bridgman View Post
          When we don't release info it's because of IP or DRM reasons, certainly not a desire to hold back the open source driver.
          Seriously, I hold it for not probable for AMD to create its windows driver and not tracking IP they use; solely refering to fglrx obfuscator to blend everything just no one notes. I mean, when I buy the card and install the driver, Im not instantly sued by AMDs 3rd party companies for using that driver. So obfuscation works?
          This whole IP thing, recognized only in US and banned in New Zealand, works and spins if major players accept it. So, unless AMD does something about it (like Google), the opensource driver would be a beef tenderloin of code remnants. Something what surely wont support the card possibilities in the matter of assuring the paying customer to pick your card from the shelves of hardware store.
          The impression I got from our smalltalk was that AMD is completely ok with current situation, which Im not, so...


          Originally posted by bridgman View Post
          This is totally untrue. I said a couple of things, none of them even remotely close to your statement :
          1. if we put a mechanism in place to allocate development funds between proprietary and open source drivers based on the money we made from the two markets there was a serious chance that the outcome would be *less* funding for open source, not *more*
          2. even if the numbers worked out in favour of shifting relatively more funding to the open drivers at some point in the future I don't think we could afford to substantially reduce fglrx funding relative to the requirements of the markets it serves, so this really boils down to a "give me more money" request
          1. Im very sure that the most expensive car(card, space rocket, coffee bean, diamond,software) is the most polished one - in terms that >justify its price<. Not the one that is of blackbox or glass-clean design. Actually glass-clean design adds to the point that people know its nanometals(silicon particles, hull plating, structure, carats, bits) aint glued from bio-waste. So, there is no sense to sell open driver, unless you want it yourself and probably no one is going to push it forward except yourself. Of course community support of improves this. So you are perfectly ok with current situation, which forces me to use closed driver. Im glad you cannot force me to use windows, thanks at least for that
          2. Your customers will appreciate open drivers, thats very sure. If they are on paar functionality with closed ones. I dont know any case, where customer will prefer closed driver to equal quality open one.

          Originally posted by bridgman View Post
          If we were happy with current state why would we have been working for years to bring open source driver support earlier in time and closer to hardware launch ? Why would we be working to release programming info in more areas ?
          "We" are barely enough to handle the complexity, which requires some financial model; otherwise "We" are perfect.

          Originally posted by bridgman View Post
          If we were happy with current development rate why would we be hiring more developers ?
          So, you sure you will be able to provide sameday support like catalyst for hd8k? So, that people could go out to shops, pick card up, insert it and enjoy?

          Originally posted by bridgman View Post
          How can you possibly twist a performance estimate based on the size of the development team relative to the domain complexity into a claim that "we are happy with driver performance" ?
          The devil is in details. The devil means completeness, power, efficiency.
          Fglrx has much more details and I dont think whole 2k crew is drinking beer (maybe wrong beer? ) so fglrx still has bugs with each release. I think, 2k people actually only help correct specific workstation bugs from firegl customers, but, although I do not use AMD cards now, I see fglrx gets more and more in form... To the point when there will be no difference between proprietary nvidia and proprietary amd.

          You claim you can reach 70% speed of highly detailed supercar(sorry! :P) assembled by 2k people with car which, assembled by 10 people with help of neighbourhood from household objects. While I never argumented with this "less is a bit less from more" strategy, I seriously question you can win championships in f1 made form household parts. I wonder where will my money go when I purchase AMD card again.. best possibility is fglrx. The car you are racing against. Or together against nvidia.

          So, my opinion is: fglrx tries to match nvidia driver; opensource radeon tries to match... erm,.. nouveau driver. Everyone is happy, except me :/
          Oh well, maybe I should put a test drive of proprietary blobs, ie gods at some much later time. I dont think fglrx will loose to opensource radeon; and I know the reason, which you probably know too, but call it miracle twist. Oh well


          Originally posted by bridgman View Post
          Can I ask a favour ? When you make claims like this please quote the statements where you think we said those things. I expect that will help both of us
          Sure, but statements not always transfer the exact meaning, especially over internet. I think even when speaking directly, there is place for missunderstanding. But sure.
          Last edited by crazycheese; 09-08-2011, 12:55 PM.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
            So, if you wanted opensource, you would make it happen. But instead we watch the clouds passing by.
            We did make it happen.

            Now you are asking if we can take the open source drivers back from the community, make them "AMD official", and spend a big pile of new money funding open source driver development with a goal of matching the performance and functionality of the proprietary drivers, right ?

            Whatever happened to people asking for things like "world peace" ?
            Last edited by bridgman; 09-08-2011, 01:48 PM.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by bridgman View Post
              We did make it happen.

              Now you are asking if we can take the open source drivers back from the community, make them "AMD official", and spend a big pile of new money funding open source driver development with a goal of matching the performance and functionality of the proprietary drivers, right ?

              Whatever happened to people asking for things like "world peace" ?
              People thought they should set their goals higher.

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              • #52
                Can't argue with that, I guess...

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                  We did make it happen.

                  Now you are asking if we can take the open source drivers back from the community, make them "AMD official", and spend a big pile of new money funding open source driver development with a goal of matching the performance and functionality of the proprietary drivers, right ?

                  Whatever happened to people asking for things like "world peace" ?
                  Im asking if you can make them "AMD official", and allow people to spend their money funding open source driver development (using transparent system) with a goal of matching the performance and functionality of the proprietary drivers.

                  I dont know what happened to them. But should radeon match nvidia blob in performance/features even close and should it be backed up seriously by your company, same as catalyst now; hardly anyone will buy nvidia for linux market. Small ever increasing linux gaming market.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                    We did make it happen.

                    Now you are asking if we can take the open source drivers back from the community, make them "AMD official", and spend a big pile of new money funding open source driver development with a goal of matching the performance and functionality of the proprietary drivers, right ?

                    Whatever happened to people asking for things like "world peace" ?
                    Sounds like world peace is easier. Truth is though: Can't please them all...
                    Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                    Cool, so many things I disagree with in a single post



                    That's not a radeon vs nouveau thing as much as a hardware thing -- the fact that AMD GPUs keep pretty much all of their microcode in RAM while other vendors build most of it into the chip. If our microcode was burned into the chip where you couldn't see it would we somehow be more "open source friendly" ?

                    I see the same thing with CPUs -- processors which don't have upgradable microcode are somehow felt to be "more open source friendly" than processors where you can update the microcode after purchase. This whole "if we have to see the microcode it's evil but if it's out of sight it's OK" perspective baffles me -- it's like the belief that building a wall around a resort so you can't see the poor people outside somehow makes the problem go away.
                    I laughed loudly after reading this one. x) Walls are for either keeping things in or out.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      tear free works!

                      Tear free works on my mobility radeon hd 2400 with 128mb. I didn't expect that from my weak card. Xv video, kwin effects, flash etc everything works great! Yay!

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                      • #56
                        Spambot following a spambot

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Smask View Post
                          Spambot following a spambot
                          I'm not sure I understand what you're on about?

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