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  • #46
    Originally posted by mugginz View Post
    What has making your hardware work as intended got to do with open vs closed source software development methodologies.
    This is a question you might want to ask on the lkml, or mozilla mailing lists, or anywhere else where Free Software is being developed.

    Many of us used Mozilla even when Internet Explorer rendered webpages better.

    Excactly. And where the best and complete functionality of hardware is required this is where people should look.
    Fair enough.

    This doesn't make a discussion about open source drivers "a strawman". ZFS is more powerful than ext4, yet many people choose to run ext4 for several important reasons:

    - it works out of the box
    - it works well enough without fiddling
    - it is free and can thus be integrated into the linux kernel (like XFS, JFS and others, BTW)

    If you want max performance, then Solaris + ZFS is clearly the way to go, but this doesn't mean that choosing an open solution is stupid, or fundamentalist. The open drivers work out of the box, and are integrated with the rest of the operating system (kernel modesetting, X+Mesa stack)

    An Oracle SQL solution is superior to MySQL for many tasks, yet people are still right to use MySQL because performance is not everything.

    How so? You can really care about open source software and also use closed source drivers.
    You can also really care about open source software and use MS Office on Windows. It's all about how much you care.

    Exactly. If you put the development methodology of your driver above the functionality you need then clearly you shouldn't buy an nVidia card.
    Put another way: If you the hardware you buy and use to be secret, and the software needed to use the rest of your computer to also be a secret, then you should buy an nVidia.

    And don't get me wrong -- this is a valid position.

    But I think that it's also legitimate to expect documentation for something you've purchased. ATi gives this documentation, and it has led to open drivers. I appreciate that. You don't. That's fine. But I don't see why you don't understand that some of us do.

    Releasing documentation is BIG. It is important. Providing basic driver code for the open source community is big. It is important. ATi is doing this, and this is FAR more important than 20 fucking FPS in a game running through Wine.

    It's OK if you feel differently, though.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by mugginz View Post
      And better in 3D across a wide range of use cases as well. Wine support for fglrx seems to be improving though thankfully. Also, what's with the issues people are having with KDE4 compositing and fglrx?
      Sorry, can you post some numbers, or benchmark page on that? I am looking at todays phoronix unigine benchmark and i like the numbers of ati.

      I am using kde4.4 with compositing, an you know what? it works

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by mugginz
        I should add that the reason I call it a strawman in this context is that when the discussion relates to what functionality one can expect from fglrx vs nVidia blob, and then it becomes clear that nVidia blob is vastly superior, most ATI fanbois then try to steer the argument into one of open vs closed source drivers.
        nVidia's blob is better than ATi's blob.

        I don't think that anyone is seriously debating this.

        But we should at least be honest and not spread total bullshit. When people intentionally lie because of fanboyism, that doesn't help anybody.

        ATi's blob does powersaving just fine. It does 3D just fine (VERY performant!). It is not very good at Xv and 2D in general, and not as stable as nVidia's blob. But many people are running it just fine. It's a matter of being a nuissance sometimes, not a matter of not having friggin powersaving -- what a pile of FUD that one was!

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by mugginz View Post
          Given the first post is inquiring about high performance graphics I would've thought blobs were a prerequisite here.
          You can highlight the title of the post?

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
            This is a question you might want to ask on the lkml, or mozilla mailing lists, or anywhere else where Free Software is being developed.

            Many of us used Mozilla even when Internet Explorer rendered webpages better.
            With so many strawmen I'm glad there are not matches around here.

            Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
            Fair enough.

            This doesn't make a discussion about open source drivers "a strawman".
            Yes it does. The question is can he use ATI hardware for his use case and when it's shown that ATI might not be the best solution you're trying to now make it an argument about open vs closed source development strategies.

            Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
            ZFS is more powerful than ext4, yet many people choose to run ext4 for several important reasons:

            - it works out of the box
            - it works well enough without fiddling
            - it is free and can thus be integrated into the linux kernel (like XFS, JFS and others, BTW)

            If you want max performance, then Solaris + ZFS is clearly the way to go, but this doesn't mean that choosing an open solution is stupid, or fundamentalist. The open drivers work out of the box, and are integrated with the rest of the operating system (kernel modesetting, X+Mesa stack)

            An Oracle SQL solution is superior to MySQL for many tasks, yet people are still right to use MySQL because performance is not everything.
            See above.

            Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
            You can also really care about open source software and use MS Office on Windows. It's all about how much you care.
            It's also about whether or not there's a viable open source solution to answer that real world problem you're trying to solve.


            Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
            Put another way: If you the hardware you buy and use to be secret, and the software needed to use the rest of your computer to also be a secret, then you should buy an nVidia.

            And don't get me wrong -- this is a valid position.
            Yes, I believe it is.

            Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
            But I think that it's also legitimate to expect documentation for something you've purchased. ATi gives this documentation, and it has led to open drivers. I appreciate that. You don't. That's fine. But I don't see why you don't understand that some of us do.

            Releasing documentation is BIG. It is important. Providing basic driver code for the open source community is big. It is important. ATi is doing this, and this is FAR more important than 20 fucking FPS in a game running through Wine.

            It's OK if you feel differently, though.
            Releasing documentation might be important but so is trouble free hardware enablement.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Jimbo View Post
              Sorry, can you post some numbers, or benchmark page on that? I am looking at todays phoronix unigine benchmark and i like the numbers of ati.
              For FPS to be relevant the drivers have to first work in the scenarios you intend to use them in.

              Originally posted by Jimbo View Post
              I am using kde4.4 with compositing, an you know what? it works
              It doesn't work for everybody. Which model card are you using?

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Jimbo View Post
                You can highlight the title of the post?
                Can you read the first post?

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                  nVidia's blob is better than ATi's blob.
                  I am not very sure that this is true for native opengl applications. Here fglrx shines ! and nvidia of course!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                    nVidia's blob is better than ATi's blob.

                    I don't think that anyone is seriously debating this.
                    I don't think anyone could seriously debate this at the moment. With some luck this may change in the future though.

                    Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                    But we should at least be honest and not spread total bullshit. When people intentionally lie because of fanboyism, that doesn't help anybody.
                    Indeed. So why do people post that there card works perfectly, only then to later qualify their original statements with caveat after caveat about where you have to do this, or where that doesn't work?

                    Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                    ATi's blob does powersaving just fine. It does 3D just fine (VERY performant!).
                    It works well in some situations but not all. I also acknowledged that power saving works for Evergreen with fglrx.

                    Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                    It is not very good at Xv and 2D in general, and not as stable as nVidia's blob. But many people are running it just fine.

                    And here we have more caveats.

                    Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                    It's a matter of being a nuissance sometimes, not a matter of not having friggin powersaving -- what a pile of FUD that one was!
                    No, this thread is definitely not predicated on whether or not power saving is working or not. It may be part of the overall equation, but not really the dominant one.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Jimbo View Post
                      I am not very sure that this is true for native opengl applications. Here fglrx shines ! and nvidia of course!
                      But again more caveats. What if someone wants to use Wine for games (as does the first poster who started this thread)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by mugginz View Post
                        Can you read the first post?
                        We are going off topic here, yes, dmrauss asked for demanding games, but he didnt' specify wine (in this case nvidia is obvious to me), and he asked too " I wondered if the scenario changed over the years"

                        For demanding games binaries have more sense, but people are begin to play HON, nexuiz... with open source. So, sorry, i don't see the discussion an exclusive fglrx vs nvidia blob.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Jimbo View Post
                          We are going off topic here, yes, dmrauss asked for demanding games, but he didnt' specify wine (in this case nvidia is obvious to me), and he asked too " I wondered if the scenario changed over the years"

                          For demanding games binaries have more sense, but people are begin to play HON, nexuiz... with open source. So, sorry, i don't see the discussion an exclusive fglrx vs nvidia blob.

                          Originally posted by dmrauss View Post
                          Hi! I've been researching for hardware to buy a new computer. As I only use Linux but never used any ATI graphic card and a friend of mine said a while ago the combination is by any means no good, I wondered if the scenario changed over the years. Searching on internet, found AMD website FAQ, which states that "ATI Proprietary Linux driver currently supports Radeon 8500 and later AGP or PCI Express graphics products" (http://ati.amd.com/products/catalyst/linux.html#2)

                          You, Linux users, owners of ATI cards, would you please tell if it's possible to do the combination Linux/ATI and still play performance demanding games (on wine and natively)?

                          I searched but couldn't find useful and **updated** material on internet. Most of material are from past 5 years!!

                          Thanks in advance,
                          Rauss.
                          Surely his requirements can only be satisfied with either fglrx or nVidia blob. Are you seriously saying Intel integrated graphics or FOSS radeon are options here.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Plus I think fglrx can outperform nvidia on native opengl games, because ati hardware is better , and fglrx has good performance on native opengl.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              you read what you highlighted???

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Jimbo View Post
                                Plus I think fglrx can outperform nvidia on native opengl games, because ati hardware is better , and fglrx has good performance on native opengl.
                                (on wine and natively)?

                                Comment

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