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  • #11
    Originally posted by v8envy View Post
    Thanks for responding.

    Once again, I must bring up the competition. I don't know how much ATI invests in Linux compared to nv -- nor, as an end customer, do I really care.

    Perception and reality is: nv existing closed driver support is worlds beyond what ATI currently offers in terms of functionality. Maybe because they have better or more upscale OEMs like Sony. Maybe because their market intelligence is better. All I know is it's better.

    But as a potential customer I've got a choice of 3 vendors.

    Vendor A: good Linux support for all end customers (including working with the latest kernels and releases of X), good performance for Windows games both native and Wine, HD video acceleration, power management, support for cards older than 3 years.
    Vendor B: Professional and embedded Linux. Perfectly capable hardware unsupported. Rudimentary HD video acceleration through unsupported "here kid, have some leftover scraps from the embedded development" means.
    Vendor C: Great Linux support, buggy and not very capable hardware.

    The rational behavior is not to threaten to buy vendor A hardware but to simply do it. It's not rational to demand vendors B or C meet various needs after buying their hardware.

    You are right, there is a disconnect. And also a vicious cycle -- nv's hardware & software stack is functional, so it gets used. Which reinforces ATI decision maker belief of zero demand for their products on Linux.

    I don't know how to fix that, but somehow NV managed. The real fix is to figure out how they made Linux support a priority and copy that approach with ATI's decision makers.

    Windows users have a choice of which hardware to buy. I *WANT* a 5870. But part of the cost is giving up Linux. I'm not ready to do that just yet, so instead of handing ATI at least one sale last quarter I have to wait and see what NV wants to sell me. As I look around my office I see 7 machines with nv hardware and one decommissioned one in a corner with an ATI card. That's a potential several thousand dollars of lost revenue from one customer alone over ~3-4 years!

    In my opinion, not having mobility chipset drivers at launch is a bad idea. Once again, NV drivers support mobility chips on Windows as well as Linux. Anyone buying an ATI laptop will bitch to all within earshot about how crappy their laptop video is for the entire time they own it, as opposed to a desktop user who can simply give up, ebay their card and buy a working one.

    Open source drivers, while great for legacy hardware, will never meet my (or most power user) needs. I prefer to run new, expensive, high performance hardware. By the time open source drivers appear for it the hardware is no longer enthusiast and more budget level.
    Again, I agree 10000%
    Bridgman, I could see where you are coming from if both of your main competitors didn't have great Linux support.

    Btw Bridgman, What do you do at AMD/ATI? I'm just curious; I don't have an ulterior motive.
    Last edited by dalingrin; 01-27-2010, 11:25 PM.

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    • #12
      The problem with what you suggested Bridgman about buying Linux based laptops when they are available is that they are basically non-existent. While you can go and buy a System76, they only provide Linux. Sure there is dell, but the only time that I saw Linux as an option for a computer built and sold by them was on a desktop,not a laptop, and even now those are very hard to come by. This is why I make the point that Microsoft currently has a monopoly in the OS department.

      How can I make this accusation? Easy: While there are other options(*nix or Mac), The large vendors don't provide that option. Thus when you purchase any form of "prebuilt" computer you are also purchasing a license to Windows. So that sale of that computer, Even if windows is never booted by the end user, still counts toward the Windows stats. The end-user doesn't get a say in the matter on the purchase of the windows license even if said user doesn't want it. The only true way to not "cast your vote" for Windows is by building the system yourself, but in that case then the OEM doesn't get the point that Linux is an important part of computing. The only true remedy for this is to get large vendors to give us the OPTION for a Windows “License” or Linux.

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      • #13
        Originally posted by bridgman View Post

        We *are* going to provide driver support anyways (I figured it would be in the 10.1 release)
        That sounds great! 10.1 is already out but the release notes doesnt say it's supported. I think I will try to see if it's was just left out accidentally.

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        • #14
          Originally posted by krionius View Post
          That sounds great! 10.1 is already out but the release notes doesnt say it's supported. I think I will try to see if it's was just left out accidentally.
          THERE YOU GO!

          10.1 with AUR package of Arch linux (google up ATI ARCH WIKI) and downgraded Xorg is working like a charm!!!! I have an ATi 5650 mobility.

          Suspend to ram worked, i could get back to the desktop.

          OpenGL seems to work (fgl_glxgears is working :P).

          I have a little icon in the bottom right corner in X, saying AMD Unsupported Hardware tho.

          Also aticonfig tool doesnt work. I had to manually create my xorg.conf (the simplest config works, look for one here http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/ATI#Configuration_2 ). aticonfig tells no supported card.

          Well, WONDERs happen sometime!

          http://imagebin.org/82240
          Last edited by krionius; 01-28-2010, 01:55 AM.

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          • #15
            tested so far, warzone2100 and tuxkart. Seems to work okay both!

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            • #16
              Originally posted by krionius View Post
              tested so far, warzone2100 and tuxkart. Seems to work okay both!
              Anyone knows how to get rid of the AMD Unsupported HW icon in X?

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              • #17
                Did you try latest 10-1 driver yet?

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                • #18
                  Originally posted by Kano View Post
                  Did you try latest 10-1 driver yet?
                  Thats with 10.1, yes. (read above, what i had to do to get it work)

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                  • #19
                    Originally posted by dalingrin View Post
                    Btw Bridgman, What do you do at AMD/ATI? I'm just curious; I don't have an ulterior motive.
                    I'm an architect in the graphics team, so I tend to work on whatever is being planned out at the moment

                    The most visible project, I guess, is managing the open source graphics driver effort.

                    Originally posted by WhiteRabbit View Post
                    The problem with what you suggested Bridgman about buying Linux based laptops when they are available is that they are basically non-existent.
                    That's why I'm suggesting something different - go ahead and buy a Windows system, but make sure the manufacturer knows that you are buying it to run Linux and that your happiness with the system (and future purchases) will be driven by how well it works with Linux.

                    Originally posted by WhiteRabbit View Post
                    While you can go and buy a System76, they only provide Linux. Sure there is dell, but the only time that I saw Linux as an option for a computer built and sold by them was on a desktop,not a laptop, and even now those are very hard to come by. <snip> The only true remedy for this is to get large vendors to give us the OPTION for a Windows “License” or Linux.
                    Exactly... and what I'm suggesting is the first step.
                    Last edited by bridgman; 01-28-2010, 08:02 AM.

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                    • #20
                      Originally posted by v8envy View Post
                      Thanks for responding. Once again, I must bring up the competition. I don't know how much ATI invests in Linux compared to nv..
                      snip
                      ...The rational behavior is not to threaten to buy vendor A hardware but to simply do it. It's not rational to demand vendors B or C meet various needs after buying their hardware.
                      Vendor A started sooner; we're catching up. You can get twisted in knots looking for deeper meaning.

                      Originally posted by v8envy View Post
                      You are right, there is a disconnect. And also a vicious cycle -- nv's hardware & software stack is functional, so it gets used. Which reinforces ATI decision maker belief of zero demand for their products on Linux.
                      That is a factor for app development, but not for what we're talking about here. My point is that your collective interest in purchasing new hardware for use with Linux is *not* being communicated to laptop manufacturers, which causes you problems in a wide variety of areas.

                      Perversely enough, differences in Linux support have pretty much zero impact on which hardware gets designed into new laptops (decisions are based only on Windows support); that's what I'm suggesting you might want to try to change.

                      Originally posted by v8envy View Post
                      I don't know how to fix that, but somehow NV managed. The real fix is to figure out how they made Linux support a priority and copy that approach with ATI's decision makers.
                      Already done. Takes time, but you have to admit there's been a lot of progress.

                      Originally posted by v8envy View Post
                      Windows users have a choice of which hardware to buy. I *WANT* a 5870. But part of the cost is giving up Linux. I'm not ready to do that just yet, so instead of handing ATI at least one sale last quarter I have to wait and see what NV wants to sell me. As I look around my office I see 7 machines with nv hardware and one decommissioned one in a corner with an ATI card. That's a potential several thousand dollars of lost revenue from one customer alone over ~3-4 years!

                      In my opinion, not having mobility chipset drivers at launch is a bad idea. Once again, NV drivers support mobility chips on Windows as well as Linux. Anyone buying an ATI laptop will bitch to all within earshot about how crappy their laptop video is for the entire time they own it, as opposed to a desktop user who can simply give up, ebay their card and buy a working one.
                      We have new GPU support at launch. The change is that for the last year or so we have been trying to push Linux drivers out through the hardware manufacturers rather than just offering them aftermarket. In cases where that doesn't work, the next Catalyst driver usually aligns with the launch schedule pretty well -- in cases where *that* doesn't happen we probably need to post a separate launch driver to tide new customers over until the next Catalyst release. That's what is missing now.

                      Originally posted by v8envy View Post
                      Open source drivers, while great for legacy hardware, will never meet my (or most power user) needs. I prefer to run new, expensive, high performance hardware. By the time open source drivers appear for it the hardware is no longer enthusiast and more budget level.
                      Yep, we also believe that both proprietary and open source drivers are required. The open source drivers give easy out-of-box support for most users, and give distro vendors control over exactly what they ship and how they configure it, but proprietary drivers are able to leverage driver work done for the entire PC market, not just the Linux share... at least on the 3D side.

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