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  • ATI dropping support for Linux?!

    "shane2peru: stuff is going on over there at ATI and they started dropping support for Linux drivers"
    As read at http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...r&d=2010-01-05

    What does that mean?!

  • #2
    Originally posted by sabriah View Post
    That means that a user did not know what to do and how to handle things, nothing else. I see no real change in the (proprietary) amd/ati linux support. If you rely on rather "stable distributions" (supported ones like ubuntu) everything should be fine and working. Sure, latest kernel versions as well as more recent versions of xorg-server (xorg-server 1.7.x anyone?) are not supported. But that is basically no change in policy at all. In fact due to the provided documentation as well as help at improving them the open source drivers are getting a whole lot better!

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    • #3
      It's only a matter of time

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      • #4
        The closed source driver should be considered as a stop-gap solution for temporarily providing half-as'd video drivers on linux. It is really a windoze driver that has been wrapped in a bunch of layers of crud to make it sort-of work in linux.

        The real linux drivers are open source. And that is where a huge part of their linux strategy lies. Now naturally, going from nothing to everything can't be an instantaneous move -- it is and has been a big game of catch of with years of neglect by ATI. The changes really started back in 06 when ATI got swallowed up by the much more benevolent AMD. ATI, back before 06, had a serious crackhead problem. They didn't offer much (if anything AT ALL) in the way of documentation that could be used by open source driver developers -- and this went on for years. They are now starting to catch up with the backlog. Everything up to R700 is more-or-less working. There are some major architectural changes in the pipeline, but the big stuff has been done. R800 shouldn't take nearly as long as it took for R600/R700 due to the similarities and **relatively** small backlog of stuff that needs to be done first.

        To translate that all into a concise answer to your concern, NO, AMD is NOT dropping linux support. AMD is ADVANCING linux support far beyond anything previously imagined. AMD is building itself into the STRONGEST position of support by ANY graphics vendor in terms of linux support. What they have is strong hardware (unlike intel, which has WEAK hardware) combined with a very good to excellent -- and quickly improving -- out-of-the-box experience (unlike nvidia, which refuses to provide the documentation required for real open source drivers, and thus provides a VERY VERY BAD out-of-the-box experience).

        You see, the big question is this:
        You have two vendors with hardware that *just works* when you install *any* linux distro (intel and AMD), and you have two vendors which have decent hardware performance (AMD and Nvidia). Which one would you choose? I would choose the ONLY one that happens to be BOTH.

        Originally posted by sabriah View Post

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        • #5
          To be fair, supporting OS drivers wouldn't have been wise for the company when it was just ATI. Large Companies aren't about pleasing the moral agenda of linux users, they're about making money. With any company, linux users get what they want if and only if it somehow makes the company money.
          Providing documentation and drivers is a huge effort. If you read bridgman's posts between the lines, you'll get an understanding just how many people are involved and how expensive their OS efforts actually are.

          What would ATI have had to gain from that investment? It could have shifted the sales numbers slightly within the linux desktop market, which is maybe ~2% of the entire desktop market. Altogether, it could have increased their market share by what? Maybe 0.5%? Hardly worth spending millions.

          It's probably the same reason with nVidia. They have drivers that are good enough to please most linux users, their market share would increase even less if they provided proper OS drivers. Not worth the effort. If there's anything nVidia has to worry about, it's not a handful of linux users not buying their cards any more.


          Now why did AMD/ATI decide to start an effort towards documentation and OS drivers? For the same reason they bought ATI in the first place: integrated platforms with joined CPU/GPU combinations (i.e. Fusion). If they want to sell netbooks, smartphones, HTPCs, HD recorders and others with their hardware, there has to be good linux support, which can only mean OS drivers.
          The current linux users are basically guinea pigs to test the new drivers, increased linux sales and reputation being just a nice side effect. AMD as a company doesn't care much about us [1], they care about future Fusion sales. But that's fine with me, I'd be happy to be a guinea pig once evergreen starts being supported


          [1] of course, those involved with the linux program care very much, they're doing a good job. Current linux users just don't play a major role in the company's long-term strategy, the OEMs choosing Fusion for their products do. Because that's where the real money is.

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          • #6
            Current linux users just don't play a major role in the company's long-term strategy
            Then it is not a long term strategy

            Who can say that linux won't be the primary application development platform for hand-held devices like google's nexus one or nokia's linux based devices? Or the primary web design platform for WebGL? Then many of the today's linux desktop users will become app or webgl developers for those platforms (which includes opengl based graphics design). What would they think before building their next machine?

            "Hmm yeah AMD's linux support is crap but I hope it will get better in the future"?

            Its not logical for a long term strategy to be this* blind...

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            • #7
              Originally posted by barbarbaron View Post
              Then it is not a long term strategy

              Who can say that linux won't be the primary application development platform for hand-held devices like google's nexus one or nokia's linux based devices? Or the primary web design platform for WebGL? Then many of the today's linux desktop users will become app or webgl developers for those platforms (which includes opengl based graphics design). What would they think before building their next machine?

              "Hmm yeah AMD's linux support is crap but I hope it will get better in the future"?

              Its not logical for a long term strategy to be this* blind...
              in the end you buy a nvidia.. OK......

              this year i will buy my 5. amd/ati cart in just 3 years now.

              over 3 years now the linux support Grows strongly.

              the real diverence nvidia vs amd is really smal only on smal CPU's you can feel the diverence @ viedeo acceleration.

              on an strong quatcore workstation there is no problem play a fucking viedeo.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Qaridarium View Post
                in the end you buy a nvidia.. OK......

                this year i will buy my 5. amd/ati cart in just 3 years now.

                over 3 years now the linux support Grows strongly.

                the real diverence nvidia vs amd is really smal only on smal CPU's you can feel the diverence @ viedeo acceleration.

                on an strong quatcore workstation there is no problem play a fucking viedeo.
                When it's working there is a small difference, but I have just noticed that on my laptop I can play games under wine with graphical details equivalent to that I can have under windows and on my main computer the same games are completely crashing the session.

                Oh, the laptop runs fine under fedora 12 with a nvidia card, while the desktop computer with it's ati card is randomly crashing if I choose the bad app...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Maxhysteria View Post
                  When it's working there is a small difference, but I have just noticed that on my laptop I can play games under wine with graphical details equivalent to that I can have under windows and on my main computer the same games are completely crashing the session.

                  Oh, the laptop runs fine under fedora 12 with a nvidia card, while the desktop computer with it's ati card is randomly crashing if I choose the bad app...
                  really i'm a hardcore wine user...... can you please name your app and wine version and your card and driver? ? ?
                  Last edited by Qaridarium; 01-06-2010, 04:53 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Qaridarium View Post
                    really i'm a hardcore wine user...... can you please name your app and wine version and your card and driver? ? ?
                    As you want...

                    Company of Heroes, steam version, wine 1.1.35 & wine 1.1.31, catalyst 9.12, HD4850.

                    I've also tried under ubuntu with packaged wine & fglrx, the game does not start if I try to raise graphical details a little and I have GLSL errors if shaders are enabled. Under fedora, the game start but Xorg is completely freezed when the first frame is rendered.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Maxhysteria View Post
                      As you want...

                      Company of Heroes, steam version, wine 1.1.35 & wine 1.1.31, catalyst 9.12, HD4850.

                      I've also tried under ubuntu with packaged wine & fglrx, the game does not start if I try to raise graphical details a little and I have GLSL errors if shaders are enabled. Under fedora, the game start but Xorg is completely freezed when the first frame is rendered.
                      http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManage...sion&iId=17806

                      there is no official bug number...

                      but a bugfix to 1.1.36

                      "Black box issue
                      by Mike Kaplinskiy on Monday December 21st 2009, 12:23
                      will be fixed in 1.1.36 (already in git for those who want to try)"

                      upgrade to git and test it again or wait for the 1.1.36 wine version..

                      or fill an bugreport!

                      and can you please post/past your wine-console bug errors?
                      Last edited by Qaridarium; 01-06-2010, 05:53 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by barbarbaron View Post
                        Who can say that linux won't be the primary application development platform for hand-held devices like google's nexus one
                        Interesting that you should mention the GN1... powered by an AMD Z430 GPU (aka "Adreno 200").

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
                          Interesting that you should mention the GN1... powered by an AMD Z430 GPU (aka "Adreno 200").
                          Question for any, particularly those who work for AMD:
                          What is a z430? How does it relate to other AMD GPUs?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
                            Question for any, particularly those who work for AMD:
                            What is a z430? How does it relate to other AMD GPUs?
                            And to (partly) answer my own question....

                            According to this: http://www.amd.com/us/press-releases...se_126537.aspx
                            ** architecturally similar/same as the XENOS chip in xbox360, which is closely related to R600. Hmm, so packing an R600 in a phone -- sweet .

                            So I guess the question is, what do the GN1's GPU drivers look like? Open source I hope?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              So I guess the question is, what do the GN1's GPU drivers look like? Open source I hope?
                              So it makes it clear that AMD's goal with opensource support is to gain a good share in hand-held market. But we are talking about a chip that doesn't need proper power-performance optimization, just power-saving is enough, which is not ideal for desktop systems. Then they have no vision about the linux desktop market which is growing rapidly:

                              http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

                              I'd say its not a logical long-term strategy. Not only regarding the consumer users but because in the near future many people who work in their home studios (not only workstation people) will be involved in opengl graphics development because of webgl and phone app development boom. And the most cost-effective platform to do that will be linux.

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