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  • #31
    Originally posted by Hoodlum View Post
    It's a similar problem intel had with the P4. Trying to get a massive die and hugely complex design (about 4-5x the ati one iirc) manufactuered without leakage / other issues. Wouldn't really have mattered too much who manufactered it the yields would be extremely low because of the design.
    Yield has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the heat cycling problem, nor should the size if TSMC was up to the task. It would seem more likely to me that TSMC was using a new lower lead solder IIRC and quite clearly had not gotten it quite right.

    Intel: Missed their heat cycling problem entirely unless you're referring to yield.

    In any event yield if simply a matter of fine tuning the manufacturing process which can be exacerbated by simultaneously moving to a new "size" process or other changes in the base manufacturing process.

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    • #32
      Would really like to know if Intel has got 32 nm already working...

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      • #33
        Originally posted by cutterjohn View Post
        Yield has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the heat cycling problem
        I wasn't refering to that. Yield has everything to do with die size.

        nor should the size if TSMC was up to the task.
        Larger die size = greater chance of failure, always. Hence lower yield. It is inherant in any manufactuering.

        It would seem more likely to me that TSMC was using a new lower lead solder IIRC and quite clearly had not gotten it quite right.
        No, it is the high lead solder that is the issue "Given that Nvidia claims to be transitioning from high-lead to eutectic bumps, it is only a matter of time until the high-lead inventory is depleted, and the Macbooks are safe to buy."
        This was in relation to the 9xxx series (aka 250) but it still applies to the other 200s. Here are pictures through an electron microscope http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/...-bump-material

        Intel: Missed their heat cycling problem entirely unless you're referring to yield.
        They had a bloated die size issue which caused low yields and high temperatures. I believe we're talking about 2 completely different hardware failures.

        In any event yield if simply a matter of fine tuning the manufacturing process which can be exacerbated by simultaneously moving to a new "size" process or other changes in the base manufacturing process.
        This was another issue intel had with the Prescott chips.


        Nvidia quotes:
        "Hara talked about how the original problem announced by Nvidia on July 2 was rectified. "A more robust underfill would have taken the stress off the bumps and kept that (original problem) from happening. What we did was, we just simply went to a more robust underfill. Stopped using that (previous) underfill, kept using high-lead bumps, but we changed the underfill. And now we don't see the problem."

        "Intel has shipped hundreds of millions of chipsets that use the same material-set combo. We're using virtually the same materials that Intel uses in its chipsets," Hara said.

        Hara also said Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC) ships a "staggering" number of chips to many companies worldwide with high-lead bumps. TSMC is the world's largest contract chip manufacturer and makes chips for Nvidia, Advanced Micro Devices, and many other companies.".

        Underfill details:

        "Next up, we have the long shot scenario, that Nvidia packaging engineers, if they actually have them rather than outsourcing everything, simply missed an entire branch of science. They all took a class on semiconductor engineering, but they all slept through that day. And didn't read the book.

        One last thing to toss into the mix, cost. The PI layer is expensive, it adds about $50 to the cost of a wafer. Wafers from TSMC on a high end process cost about $3,000 to $5,000 depending on a lot of details. Adding the PI layer increases the cost of silicon by a noticeable amount, and adds to the defect rate."
        http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/...hips-underfill


        Conclusion - It was an underfill issue. Nvidia cheaped out and it caused failures. This is what happens when you have to compete on price when you get significantly less dies per wafer (more cost). You have to make profit somewhere.

        Don't get me wrong. I don't care for either company but faulty hardware is faulty hardware.
        Last edited by Hoodlum; 11-24-2009, 12:28 PM.

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        • #34
          System76 has nVidia laptops

          System76.com has a range of good-looking laptops. If you don't care about games & just want video to work the X4500MHD from intel ought to do, & if you need something more there are a couple upper-end laptops with nVidia cards.

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          • #35
            Why don't yoy take a look at this post:
            http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20432

            That is my experience too.

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