Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

AMD Dropping R300-R500 Support In Catalyst Driver

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • AA is a tricky beast. It requires a lot of setup, and in a lot of cases also a memory manager. FSAA is also not possible without a compositing manager that uses a rendering scheme with AA capabilities; at this time I think that the only such app is compiz, although kwin4 might have it as well.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by bridgman View Post
      In the case of the 3xx-5xx range, we ended up successfully using the same architecture for an unusually long time, so we ended up supporting the 3xx family for almost seven years (2002-2009). The 5xx line was introduced in fall 2005, so it had the shortest run -- about 3-1/2 years from introduction to reduced support.
      I don't think that this is a fair way to assess how long the card family is supported. IMO, you should consider when the last major hardware revision was released not the first i.e. the latest and greatest iteration of a given core. E.g. the X1950 XTX was released on the market here mid September 2006; held the performance crown for a few months and remained competitive for quite a bit of time.

      Comment


      • I agree. In an earlier post I think I mentioned that the 5xx family had about a 2-1/2 year gap between the last introduction and reduction of support.

        IIRC the context here was someone asking for a guess as to how long a more recent card might be supported, so my answer was based on what we have done in the past.

        Comment


        • Bridgman:
          The funny or should I say sad thing is. Nvidia isn't much better either. I have had to install beta drivers just to get the latest xorg to work. Frustrated me so much. None of the "It Just works(tm)" stuff... After about the 7th xorg.conf file I get mouse and keyboard working again. As hal only accepted my USB mouse but not the trusty old ps2 keyboard. (ARGH)

          Comment


          • bridgman:
            Please can you please clarify if the RS690 based cards will be supported in the future?.
            The comment about this cards is very confusing in the article.
            To the customer, this is a good move, permitting you are an owner of a Radeon HD 2000 graphics card or later (or an RS690/RS740 IGP, but the RS780 will remain supported).
            I don't understand if this means that my card (Radeon x1200) in my Toshiba laptop will be supported in the future.
            thanks in advance.

            Comment


            • In terms of support, the 690/740 would be in the same class as 3xx-5xx since they have a 4xx-series 3D engine. I believe there will be specific exceptions for new designs but so far all the OEM activity is Windows only (which has been the norm anyways).

              Comment


              • sorry, I forgot to mention that I use Ubuntu in my laptop, that's why I'm interested in the future support from AMD for this RS690 based card. So, I would understand that the future versions of Catalyst will not support my card... bad news! because the actual open source radeon driver doesn't perform well with my card. I hope the one distributed with jaunty perform quite well, otherwise I won't have any alternative solution!

                Comment


                • When you say "doesn't perform well" with the open source drivers are you talking about 2D/video or 3D ?

                  If it's 2D we should be able to get that working well today, if it's 3D that will take longer but it's in the pipe as well.

                  Comment


                  • Control power

                    Im currently using the opensource driver on Ubuntu 9.10 beta and it works, unfortunately it cannot control the powermodes of the card so my laptop battery is draining fast.

                    And since the opensource driver cannot control the power of the card, its 20 degrees warmer than with fglrx driver.

                    For ATI to be successfull on laptops (old and new), powercontrol should be high priority in the opensource driver.

                    Right now, I have to choose between battery time (Ubuntu 8.10) or upgraded OS (Ubuntu 9.04). As you may have realized I have a X1600 card that is not supported by fglrx for 9.10.

                    Any timeframe on getting powercontrol into opensource driver?

                    Comment


                    • I also have a mobility x1600, nad recently tried the open source driver again.

                      I'm very happy with performance (even 3D performance is OK for what I use it for), but on idle my notebook uses about 4-5watts of extra power (according to battery drain via ACPI - powertop).

                      I managed to reduce the temperature to a reasonable setting by using radeontool-1.5qq (the power-managed patched version of radeontool), but power consumption still kills my battery considerably faster...

                      Is there an experimental power management option for the ati-radeon driver?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DeeMan View Post
                        Im currently using the opensource driver on Ubuntu 9.10 beta and it works, unfortunately it cannot control the powermodes of the card so my laptop battery is draining fast.

                        And since the opensource driver cannot control the power of the card, its 20 degrees warmer than with fglrx driver.

                        For ATI to be successfull on laptops (old and new), powercontrol should be high priority in the opensource driver.

                        Right now, I have to choose between battery time (Ubuntu 8.10) or upgraded OS (Ubuntu 9.04). As you may have realized I have a X1600 card that is not supported by fglrx for 9.10.

                        Any timeframe on getting powercontrol into opensource driver?
                        For me it's also a big issue. I think ATI should concentrate on providing powercontrol in open source drivers especially when they dropped support for X1600 in fglrx, because nobody will switch to open source drivers when there is a possibility to burn own graphic card.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by NSLW View Post
                          For me it's also a big issue. I think ATI should concentrate on providing powercontrol in open source drivers especially when they dropped support for X1600 in fglrx, because nobody will switch to open source drivers when there is a possibility to burn own graphic card.
                          Well, I still haven't fried my mobility one with the open driver for more than 8-9 months now. Although, if it burns out, that'll be a good reason to move forward

                          Comment


                          • Well this entire talk has been extremely informative (less of course those people simply 'whining' about the decision and not providing any sort of constructive feedback).

                            My first reaction to the entire thing was negative (before actually reading all the information provided in these 32-some pages of posts). The timing is unfortunate, but ultimately I'm glad that ATI/AMD has resolved to releasing the hardware specifications/documentation last year, and that *hopefully* proper open source Radeon drivers will exist in the near future. The decision to mark cards as "legacy" is inevitable. But the means to which ATI/AMD will continue to provide support is most excellent, and should really give ATI/AMD an edge compared to nVidia if we get a rock solid open source driver out of it, something that nVidia does NOT have.

                            I can certainly feel for everyone who thinks "I purchased a card, the drivers should just work!" -- which is something I agree with to a certain extent, but there are limits to what a manufacturer can provide (for obvious financial reasons), ATI/AMD can't afford to support every single different Linux distro under the sun, because there's a LOT. When you bought your card, did it have a LINUX LOGO on the box? None of mine did. So expecting the hardware to work flawlessly in Linux is a little presumptuous (even if ATI/AMD have been promising for a while that Linux will work..) Indeed, Windows "just works", that's because (as I've read in this thread) the architecture doesn't change as much as the Linux kernels and X server versions change, plus of course the user base for Windows is huge compared to Linux/Mac.

                            I think ATI/AMD's choice here is the right one. The best way to ensure working ATI graphics cards is to focus on the open source driver, and as Mr. Bridgeman has stated, a driver that theoretically would have support "forever".

                            On to some more particulars...

                            I currently own several ATI cards:
                            * ATI Radon Mobility 7500 RV200
                            * ATI Radeon 9800 Pro R350
                            * ATI Radeon X800 R420
                            * Sapphire ATI Radeon X1600 Series R530/R535
                            * HIS ATI Radeon X1950 Pro Ice3 Turbo RV570

                            My distro of choice is Ubuntu for it's stability, and HOPEFUL appeal as a "Windows Replacement" for many people. Currently I have various PCs with 8.04 (Hardy), 8.10 (Intrepid), and most recently, 9.04 (Jaunty).

                            On my laptop (the mobility Radeon 7500 series), I've always used the open source driver since it's very old. Compiz and that jazz works.

                            For the rest however, the past 1-2 years I've had to use the fglrx driver because the open source Radeon was never up to par. Now however, with the recent events, and especially the incompatibility between proprietary fglrx and latest X server, I've given the Radeon driver another try. Low and behind, my first impressions are good!

                            The Test:
                            * Radeon X1950 RV570 Card
                            * Dual Monitor Output (1680x1024 each)
                            * Compiz Enabled

                            This is my main rig, of which I 'expect' dual monitor output to work, 3D graphics, compiz, and TV output. But I try to be patient ;-0

                            So far (for the last day or so only), the system is stable, and haven't had a single crash as of yet. glxgears is a little 'buggy' if you try to move the window around, but it runs. Compiz is enabled with dual monitor output configured with the gnome-display-properties thingy.

                            Really looking forward for the coming months to hopefully see some solidification on the drivers.

                            Couple of points @ Mr. Bridgeman if I may:

                            1. Catalyst Control Center: Having a "Simple" point and click way to enable and disable, clone and extend, monitors, and TV out is incredible. For me, this is a huge "loss" by leaving the fglrx driver set to the open source. Will the open source drivers ever have something similar? I know in gnome there is the "gnome-display-properties" which I can only assume uses xrandr for functionality... but when you compare the CCC to this, the gnome-display-properties GUI barely works, and certainly doesn't compare in overall functionality.

                            2. Full 3D Rendering and Acceleration: I've heard you say that "this is in the pipe", and will hopefully achieve 90% of the fglrx capabilities. Yay! What does this mean exactly though? When the Radeon driver reaches 90%, ATI/AMD will no longer be paying you guys to finish it off, and the open source community will have to finish it off? ... or ... is it more of a 'not worth the effort' last 10% ... ? Curiuos ;-0

                            3. Wine: Ultimately, I'm a gamer (even if I don't play games as often anymore, heh). I do not expect the latest and greatest games to run in Wine on Linux. But I was HOPING that we could at least run older and 'recent' games to run in WINE. Examples (Starcraft, Warcraft III, UT2K4, Team Fortress 2, etc.). In my experience, these worked with the proprietary fglrx drivers for a while before 9.x Catalysts came out, but then WINE had some updates and nothing worked since. Posts 207 and 205 show some decent remarks on this. Can we expect WINE functionality from all these cards marked as "legacy"? ... or will it just never work? Am I doomed to dual boot to Windows for gaming forever? ;-0

                            @ The Community In General (and Michael)
                            * Testing: You posted in post 93 that there would be something "nice and easy" for users to assist in testing. Any pointers on how we can contribute?


                            Thanks again everyone, and especially thank you to Bridgeman. It's really impressive to see an active ATI/AMD rep on these forums helping to answer people's questions.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by fermulator View Post
                              @ The Community In General (and Michael)
                              * Testing: You posted in post 93 that there would be something "nice and easy" for users to assist in testing. Any pointers on how we can contribute?
                              http://www.pts-linux-live.com/

                              To get involved, subscribe to the mailing list to find out more information as its developed - http://phoronix-test-suite.com/mailm...test-suite.com
                              Michael Larabel
                              http://www.michaellarabel.com/

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by fermulator View Post
                                1. Catalyst Control Center: Having a "Simple" point and click way to enable and disable, clone and extend, monitors, and TV out is incredible. For me, this is a huge "loss" by leaving the fglrx driver set to the open source. Will the open source drivers ever have something similar? I know in gnome there is the "gnome-display-properties" which I can only assume uses xrandr for functionality... but when you compare the CCC to this, the gnome-display-properties GUI barely works, and certainly doesn't compare in overall functionality.
                                Not sure here. I think the community preference would be to see the standard desktop tools extended rather than having vendor-specific solutions, but one of the issues may be how much is feasible with a standrad tool.

                                My assumption is that anything which can be done through RandR could be done by a generic configuration tool, and I *think* that pretty much everything you mentioned is covered by RandR. If that is the case, then I guess we just need to get the G team and the K team competing on this

                                Originally posted by fermulator View Post
                                2. Full 3D Rendering and Acceleration: I've heard you say that "this is in the pipe", and will hopefully achieve 90% of the fglrx capabilities. Yay! What does this mean exactly though? When the Radeon driver reaches 90%, ATI/AMD will no longer be paying you guys to finish it off, and the open source community will have to finish it off? ... or ... is it more of a 'not worth the effort' last 10% ... ? Curiuos ;-0
                                The various % numbers floating around are related to performance, not capabilities. I think most of the devs expect that the open drivers will get pretty close to the capabilities of proprietary drivers in terms of OGL extensions reasonably soon, while the *performance* of the open source drivers will probably lag behind the proprietary drivers when running with complex workloads.

                                The issue is simply that proprietary drivers can use the same code across 100% of the market (and spend a corresponding amount on development) while the open source drivers (or any Linux-specific driver, whether open or closed) only addresses the Linux market share and can only afford a proportionally sized development effort.

                                The good news is that 2% of the development effort can get you a *lot* more than 2% of the performance... our guess is that you'll see maybe 90% on simple workloads and 60-ish % on complex workloads once the transition to Gallium3D is completed. If LLVM works as hoped (which I personally doubt) or if another effective shader compiler solution is implemented then the performance on complex workloads might get to 80% or higher.

                                These are all guesses though - the key point though is that once performance gets above a certain level most users won't notice or care, and that level is probably closer to 50% than you might think. Modern GPUs are getting faster and cheaper at an alarming rate.

                                I should mention that we are just one part of the development effort, and that most of the performance-related improvements are coming from other members of the development community, whether from developers working for major distros or from independent devs. Volunteer developers still make major contributions to the entire Linux/X/DRI system. We are focusing mostly on adding support for new GPU generations so the other devs can spend more time improving the overall driver framework.

                                You *can* thank Alex for the EXA and Textured Video code though Um... and power management, and initial tear-free support, and...

                                Originally posted by fermulator View Post
                                3. Wine: Ultimately, I'm a gamer (even if I don't play games as often anymore, heh). I do not expect the latest and greatest games to run in Wine on Linux. But I was HOPING that we could at least run older and 'recent' games to run in WINE. Examples (Starcraft, Warcraft III, UT2K4, Team Fortress 2, etc.). In my experience, these worked with the proprietary fglrx drivers for a while before 9.x Catalysts came out, but then WINE had some updates and nothing worked since. Posts 207 and 205 show some decent remarks on this. Can we expect WINE functionality from all these cards marked as "legacy"? ... or will it just never work? Am I doomed to dual boot to Windows for gaming forever? ;-0.
                                There are two main factors here. One is the degree of OpenGL extension support - many 3D games running on Wine require OGL 2.x functionality from the underlying GL driver. The other is that Wine was primarily developed on NVidia hardware and probably still has some dependencies on the specifics of their driver implementation (eg memory management).

                                The open source drivers are moving fairly quickly towards GL 2.x support and will probably get "close enough" once Gallium3D becomes broadly used. I'm confident the Wine devs will take care of the rest. Both will take time, of course.
                                Last edited by bridgman; 05-06-2009, 07:59 PM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X