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MIPS Loongson 3A Benchmarks On Debian

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  • #61
    @TobiSGD
    QEMU is a emulator also a accelerated emulator is a emulator. And no windows7 do not run on this kind of hardware without emulation and without the use of "Linux".
    Only crazy people would equate the word "emulate" and the word "run".
    Run= nativ 100% speed, no need for linux
    Emulate= not nativ only 70% speed and you need linux and qemu.

    Yes I know your next forum post will be a ***reversal of all logic*** and we will all hail to you Discordia.

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    • #62
      Maybe you dont get me right. You dont need to attack efibootmgr, you just use it to delete all boot entries and some systems are dead.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by maldorordiscord View Post
        Only crazy people would equate the word "emulate" and the word "run".
        The fact that these CPUs have acceleration units for emulating x86-CPUs with Qemu means that these CPUs are meant by the developers to run x86 code also. That is basically the same as with the old Transmeta Crusoe and Efficeon CPUs, which were not x86-CPUs but CPUs with a VLIW architecture. That they were be able to run x86 code was only made possible through an emulation layer, the Code Morphing Software, which was basically a virtual machine. Nonetheless nobody would say that these CPUs don't "run" Linux or Windows.
        No reversal of logic needed, Qaridarium.

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        • #64
          I am sorry to hijack your cordial conversation here, but I have a few questions.
          I am not sure to whom this might be addressed, but feel free to comment. I am here to learn.


          What makes you think that if chip has open-source blob it is "hidden" feature free ?

          It is certainly conceivable, that rougue manufacturer has placed a backdoor in the chip even if the blob is open source.
          You see, it could be that the instruction set that is provided to you, as user, might be virtualized, and underneath the hood, you have you micro-supermicro-ops, like intel has. It is easy to imagine, with this in mind, that your firmware(microcode) is just a facade.

          You see, to prove your chip is surprise free, you must disclose full design specification for the chip. Even this, is not good, even though a good starting point. The other stepping stone, in order to prove of sterileness of your chip, is to prove that the concrete chip you provide is built in fact using the very design that you disclosed to the public. One other thing, you have to prove that there are no other features or bugs(known/unknown) in the chip.
          Because of all this, I guess, it is impossible to claim that this or that chip is sterile. Never. You can't trust it.

          Saying that FSF's Stallman(with all due respect to this guy) "approves this message" by using it is just not good enough.

          Comment


          • #65
            @TobiSGD

            "The fact that these CPUs have acceleration units for emulating x86-CPUs with Qemu means that these CPUs are meant by the developers to run x86 code also. That is basically the same as with the old Transmeta Crusoe"

            No this is not the same because one a Transmeta Crusoe you can not run native VLIW code you can only run x86 code no mater you try.
            This means in a consumer viewpoint a Transmeta is a x86 cpu.
            A Loongson Instead is a MIBS cpu and you can only use the x86 acceleration if you start linux and then starting qemu and then start windows and then start the x86 app.
            an intel x86 is also not a CISC he also just emulate a CISC but the consumer only can use the x86 CISC emulation.

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            • #66
              If it also can run native code is not relevant. The Crusoe CPUs had a mechanism to update the CMS, so if you as developer write a software in the internal instruction set and replace the CMS with that you are running native native Crusoe code, would be the same attack vector as with Intel's or AMD's microcode you described earlier. May be not possible for the "consumer", you are right, but it is possible.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Gödel View Post
                You see, to prove your chip is surprise free, you must disclose full design specification for the chip. Even this, is not good, even though a good starting point. The other stepping stone, in order to prove of sterileness of your chip, is to prove that the concrete chip you provide is built in fact using the very design that you disclosed to the public. One other thing, you have to prove that there are no other features or bugs(known/unknown) in the chip.
                Because of all this, I guess, it is impossible to claim that this or that chip is sterile. Never. You can't trust it.

                Saying that FSF's Stallman(with all due respect to this guy) "approves this message" by using it is just not good enough.
                The most powerful open design would be the OpenSparc, if you have a million burning in your pocket you could have TSMC etc build you some. The check of whether it's really same as the design would need an electron microscope, which is a bit cheaper.

                So it's certainly possible if you have the cash

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                • #68
                  The discussion here just reminded me of HCF(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halt_and_Catch_Fire), hehehe.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    @TobiSGD

                    "If it also can run native code is not relevant."

                    It is because for the Loongson you get 100% speed if you use native code and also the OpenGL acceleration for the GPU is 100% speed.
                    Qemu don't have the features to accelerate openGL/DirectX right now.
                    No one will use this hardware for windows because you only do have 70% cpu speed and 0% GPU speed.


                    "The Crusoe CPUs had a mechanism to update the CMS, so if you as developer write a software in the internal instruction set and replace the CMS with that you are running native native Crusoe code, would be the same attack vector as with Intel's or AMD's microcode you described earlier."

                    AMD,Intel and Transmeta are technically the same a cpu emulate x86 cisc by "microcode"
                    Loongson is not the same because the Loongson do not try to emulate an x86.
                    This cpu emulate a MIPS cpu by microcode and the x86 acceleration is just a emulation feature but you get the best result if you use native MIPS code and native OpenGL code without any emulation.

                    "May be not possible for the "consumer", you are right, but it is possible."

                    sure its a attack vector but not a use case scenario because you lost 100% of the openGL acceleration and you lost 30% of the cpu speed.
                    be sure no one will buy such a system to only run windows7.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by maldorordiscord View Post
                      AMD,Intel and Transmeta are technically the same a cpu emulate x86 cisc by "microcode"
                      Loongson is not the same because the Loongson do not try to emulate an x86.
                      This cpu emulate a MIPS cpu by microcode and the x86 acceleration is just a emulation feature but you get the best result if you use native MIPS code and native OpenGL code without any emulation.
                      Of course you don't get 100% speed. would be nice to have some numbers how fast a program that would be written for the internal architecture of an AMD or Intel CPU is in comparison to the emulated x86 code. If it would be around the same numbers this would somewhat negate your argumentation. By the way, PCI passthrough is experimental at this time and i doubt that it will take long that this works reliable. If it works you can run native OpenGL in the VM.

                      be sure no one will buy such a system to only run windows7.
                      I am sure that nobody will do this. That is why I said:
                      The fact that these CPUs have acceleration units for emulating x86-CPUs with Qemu means that these CPUs are meant by the developers to run x86 code also
                      But anyways, I would think about such a CPU for my next file-server or maybe a netbook or notebook, but I am a gamer, so it has to be x86 on my main rig.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by TobiSGD View Post
                        Of course you don't get 100% speed. would be nice to have some numbers how fast a program that would be written for the internal architecture of an AMD or Intel CPU is in comparison to the emulated x86 code.
                        The only purpose for an AMD or Intel CPU is to emulate x86 code because of this they optimize it to get ~100% speed. Emulating something does not mean slower in fact they emulate the x86 code just because its FASTER than a native core.

                        Originally posted by TobiSGD View Post
                        If it would be around the same numbers this would somewhat negate your argumentation.
                        Fact is they get more than 100% speed compared to a native CISC core.
                        And they don't waste resources in emulating a MIPS CPU.
                        If you read Wikipedia and CPU history carefully they only start to emulate CISC because its faster if the only purpose of a chip is to emulate CISC.

                        in other words my argumentation is unbeatable.

                        Originally posted by TobiSGD View Post
                        By the way, PCI passthrough
                        You are wrong about this "PCI passthrough" point because its a chipset feature and Loongson use 5 years outdated amd chip-set and no the Loongson chip-sets do not support PCI passthrough.
                        Maybe they support it in 5 years with never amd chip-set from AMD.
                        First amd chipset who support this is: 890 and Loongson use 7xx based AMD chip-set.

                        Originally posted by TobiSGD View Post
                        is experimental at this time and i doubt that it will take long that this works reliable. If it works you can run native OpenGL in the VM.
                        Just to be sure Loongson uses outdated AMD chip-set 7xx class without any support for "PCI passthrough" it is just impossible to get OpenGL support in the VM only the WINE-lib way of virtual-box is possible but QEMU don't support wine libs.

                        Originally posted by TobiSGD View Post
                        I am sure that nobody will do this.
                        That's funny if i say words like: this is linux only hardware then I'm wrong but you are also sure no one will buy this hardware for windows 7. Logic is there any logic ?

                        Originally posted by TobiSGD View Post
                        But anyways, I would think about such a CPU for my next file-server or maybe a netbook or notebook, but I am a gamer, so it has to be x86 on my main rig.
                        There are 2 possible ways for gamers and a 3. way in the future.
                        1. way is wine with qemu x86 emulation then the openGL code is native
                        2. way is the virtual-box way you can use the wine direct3D libs passthrough to get native openGL but right now virtual-box do not support the x86 acceleration of the loongson.
                        3. way only possible for the future with newer chipset is the "PCI passthrough" way.

                        There are already Loongson 2 based net-books you can buy but only single-core and very slow because of no 3D acceleration graphic card. I don't think you will buy something like this.

                        The Loongson 3A Lemote 8133 is a nice notebook quat core but with outdated amd-hd3200 graphic chip. But the best part is there is a UMTS/3G version with sim card reader.

                        Right now the biggest server system they over is a dual-socket Loongson 3A system with 8 cores and maximum 16gb ram. but the 3A is a 15 watt low power GPU means this system do not have big performance but they will sell the same mainboard with the 3B a ~50 watt CPU.

                        In 2013 there will be a 16 core CPU build on a 28nm process. this 16 core CPU on a dual socket system or quat socket system will be combative on the server market.
                        Last edited by maldorordiscord; 07-05-2012, 04:46 PM.

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                        • #72
                          FYI... mador there is qaridarium who is a banned user. Its pretty obvious I mean seriously who says quat core X.x.

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                          • #73
                            @cb88

                            A typing mistake is not a prove for a crime. In other words not a Impressive detective work.
                            Anyway there are examples for writing this word quad was does mean the number 4 with the letter t in english.
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternion
                            Or do you now chance the letter t into d for the word Quaternion ? Quadernion ? The meaning is the same it means the number 4 and ending ernion only means number system.
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quat
                            There are many more examples.
                            Quaternary for example or do you change it to Quadernary ?
                            Quad core and quat core do have the same meaning and anyone can understand it without problems.
                            The difference is only important for grammar and spelling nazis to do necrophilia on the language.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by maldorordiscord View Post
                              That's funny if i say words like: this is linux only hardware then I'm wrong but you are also sure no one will buy this hardware for windows 7. Logic is there any logic ?
                              You should read more carefully. Implementing emulation acceleration for x86 code means that the designers of that chip are pretty sure that people want to run x86 code on it, otherwise this would be useless effort. x86 code includes Windows. So this is basically not Linux only hardware. The second statement, and you have said the same, was not that nobody will buy this hardware for Windows 7, but that nobody will buy this hardware for only Windows 7. The world is not black and white, you can use Linux and Windows on those CPUs, regardless if Windows will be slower due to emulation.

                              There are 2 possible ways for gamers and a 3. way in the future.
                              1. way is wine with qemu x86 emulation then the openGL code is native
                              2. way is the virtual-box way you can use the wine direct3D libs passthrough to get native openGL but right now virtual-box do not support the x86 acceleration of the loongson.
                              3. way only possible for the future with newer chipset is the "PCI passthrough" way.
                              As you have stated, the x86 emulation is only 70% as fast as the native code. These CPUs are currently targeted for running at 1 GHz clockspeed. My current favorite Skyrim (very CPU hungry game when you play in high quality) would choke to death on this CPU, regardless if you get native OpenGL or not. Not an option.

                              Originally posted by cb88
                              FYI... mador there is qaridarium who is a banned user.
                              I know, this was pointed out already earlier in this thread and has been already reported to the forum mods, but moderation on this forum is nothing more that a really bad joke, so I decided to do the same as the moderators: I don't care.

                              Quad core and quat core do have the same meaning and anyone can understand it without problems.
                              Sorry, but no. Quad is a legitimate English word, translated to German it is "vierfach". It is derived from the English word quadruple (which by the way will also not magically be changed to "quatruple" just because you found the word quaternion).Now try to find the word quat in an English dictionary.
                              If you want call me grammar Nazi, I don't care. IMHO, in a discussion on an English speaking forum a somewhat well formulated and correctly written English shows respect to the other people in the discussion. And it isn't that hard to use a spellchecker, I would think.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by TobiSGD View Post
                                You should read more carefully. Implementing emulation acceleration for x86 code means that the designers of that chip are pretty sure that people want to run x86 code on it, otherwise this would be useless effort. x86 code includes Windows. So this is basically not Linux only hardware. The second statement, and you have said the same, was not that nobody will buy this hardware for Windows 7, but that nobody will buy this hardware for only Windows 7. The world is not black and white, you can use Linux and Windows on those CPUs, regardless if Windows will be slower due to emulation.
                                And so one and so one no windows customer will buy such a system only Linux people will buy it.
                                And some server customers will host virtual engines for x86 customers to sell standard server VMs with a very low power consuming ratio.

                                Originally posted by TobiSGD View Post
                                As you have stated, the x86 emulation is only 70% as fast as the native code. These CPUs are currently targeted for running at 1 GHz clockspeed. My current favorite Skyrim (very CPU hungry game when you play in high quality) would choke to death on this CPU, regardless if you get native OpenGL or not. Not an option.
                                clock speed say nothing about "Speed" the 28nm 16core do have a 512bit integer-SIMD acceleration unit this means it can easily beat any other CPU right now on the market.
                                Integer-simd unit means stuff like FMA4,FMA3,XOP,CVT16,AVX(the integer part) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMA_instruction_set
                                The FMA4 from amd and AVX is only 256bit and the 28nm 16core Loongson is 512 bit integer and 2 pieces of 512bit Vector SIMD in the x86 world the name is SSE-64bit,3dnow-32bit,AVX-256bit and so one.
                                In other words the Loongson really is a high performance CPU... a classic one without high-clock-fake

                                Originally posted by TobiSGD View Post
                                Sorry, but no. Quad is a legitimate English word, translated to German it is "vierfach". It is derived from the English word quadruple (which by the way will also not magically be changed to "quatruple" just because you found the word quaternion).Now try to find the word quat in an English dictionary.
                                If you want call me grammar Nazi, I don't care. IMHO, in a discussion on an English speaking forum a somewhat well formulated and correctly written English shows respect to the other people in the discussion. And it isn't that hard to use a spellchecker, I would think.
                                Dude I'm so sorry for you I'm right and you can not do anything about it you want a English dictionary?
                                I already show you a English Wikipedia page but I also can show you a English dictionary no problem but you are still wrong: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/quat
                                wiktionary :quat -->"Etymology: Common Germanic, whence also Old English "
                                So its not a problem to find this word in an English dictionary.
                                Its old English and means "4 of 4" translated to German its "volle vier/ganze vier teile".

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