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  • #16
    i give this trustzone crap 6 months tops until is completely hacked/reverse enginiered and nullfied in linux/windows and AMD will be posting sad faces for burning a crap load of cash(and they don't exactly have lots!!! AMD CEO don't read google finance and look for AMD stocks???) for an absolutely useless feature.

    so i imagine this "hackers laughing to their heart content while AMD stocks shares plumb even lower", it not enough warning the 3 billion of version of BluRAY DRM attempts getting hacked before the actual disc get in the store?? or maybe this is another useless attempt from the MAFIAA and AMD is doing it for the free cash ??

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Qaridarium View Post
      and i personally start to feel like a victim by amd because in the same time catalyst drop support for the hd2000-hd4000 series the radeon driver also drop improvements for hd2000-hd4000 the essential shader compiler and shader cache is hd5000-hd6000 only and because the main interrest is in openCL hd2000-hd4000 hardware will maybe never get a solution.
      Why do you even say things like this ? I'm sure you know better... the shader cache changes were for 6xx/7xx as well and nothing has been dropped from shader compiler. Maybe you're confusing shader cache with backend setup fixes and OpenCL support with graphics shader compiler ?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by bridgman View Post
        Why do you even say things like this ? I'm sure you know better... the shader cache changes were for 6xx/7xx as well and nothing has been dropped from shader compiler. Maybe you're confusing shader cache with backend setup fixes and OpenCL support with graphics shader compiler ?
        maybe but my benchmarks and gaming experience call me that the shader compiler is broken for hd2000-hd4000

        last time oibaf activated the the shader compiler all my games "crash"

        maybe a bug. why not fix this bug ?

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        • #19
          Huh ? Are you talking about the LLVM shader compiler ? That is intended for :

          - graphics on SI and above

          - OpenCL on Evergreen and above (since earlier GPUs don't have full HW)

          - experimental for graphics on 6xx-NI (may become default in future if it works out well)

          The "5000 and above" line is for OpenCL, not for graphics.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by bridgman View Post
            Huh ? Are you talking about the LLVM shader compiler ? That is intended for :

            - graphics on SI and above

            - OpenCL on Evergreen and above (since earlier GPUs don't have full HW)

            - experimental for graphics on 6xx-NI (may become default in future if it works out well)

            The "5000 and above" line is for OpenCL, not for graphics.
            bullshit AMD them self manage to get OpenCL on hd4000 hardware to run! by emulating 1 nvidia spezific cache in vram and using the vertex shaders to emulate the full OpenCL hardware.
            also a full openCL emulation in openGL via shaders is also possible. you just need to emulate the 2 NVIDIA specific (geforce8800) caches in VRAM…

            so this "The "5000 and above" line is for OpenCL, not for graphics." is just bullshit.

            my hardware (hd4770)do have:
            650 shaders and 750mhz and 51,2GB/s and i get 13fps in HON
            other people with (hd6770) 800shaders+800mhz and 76,8GB/s get ~50fps....

            13fps vs ~50 fps ? ? ? ? and he do have the shader compiler working. because the shader compiler works for hd5000-hd6000 cards.

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            • #21
              Yes, it is possible to implement OpenCL on HD4xxx although the performance is not good in a lot of common cases (for the reasons you mention). No we are not including that in the initial open source implementation that Tom is working on although we certainly wouldn't object to someone adding it (it is open source in a public repository after all).

              Feel free to call that "bullshit" if you must although many people would call it "focusing on the hardware where we can deliver a broadly useful solution".

              Are you sure the other poster you are referencing is running the LLVM shader compiler ? What was his performance like with the default compiler ? I suspect there is some other difference than the shader compiler.

              Maybe we could continue these discussions to more relevent threads ? It would be really convenient if we could move the HON performance discussion back to the HON thread.
              Last edited by bridgman; 06-13-2012, 06:38 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                Q, please take a deep breath.

                Yes, it is possible to implement OpenCL on HD4xxx although the performance is not good in a lot of common cases (for the reasons you mention).
                Bitcoin as a benchmark prove this is wrong.

                my HD4770 do "50 MHash/s" source: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=18355.0

                my PhenomII X4 only do "12MHash/s" @3,4ghz source: https://de.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware#AMD

                this means my hd4770 is ~5 times faster than my CPU !

                and you call this: "performance is not good" LOL... what a "lie"

                sure i shold use my CPU 5 times slower instead because "bridgman" told me so.

                Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                No we are not including that in the initial open source implementation that Tom is working on although we certainly wouldn't object to someone adding it (it is open source in a public repository after all).
                yes yes i already know that but the reasons are based on a "lie" : "performance is not good"

                Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                Feel free to call that "bullshit" if you must although many people would call it "focusing on the hardware where we can deliver a broadly useful solution".
                its bullshit because using the CPU in my case "phenomII x4" is 5 times slower!

                "50 MHash/s" instead of "12MHash/s" is a useful solution!

                but feel free to "lie" otherwise.



                Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                Are you sure the other poster you are referencing is running the LLVM shader compiler ? What was his performance like with the default compiler ? I suspect there is some other difference than the shader compiler.
                i'm sure there is room for improvements. maybe the hd4000 performance grows in the future.
                and you can ask him what is is using.

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                • #23
                  Well about the real topic:

                  will that arm core be accessable in a direct way? if i remember it correctly there was a system that had a x86 and arm core and it was possible to use only the arm one to boot a tiny linux system. will that be possible here as well?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Qaridarium View Post
                    Bitcoin as a benchmark prove this is wrong.

                    my HD4770 do "50 MHash/s" source: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=18355.0

                    my PhenomII X4 only do "12MHash/s" @3,4ghz source: https://de.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware#AMD

                    this means my hd4770 is ~5 times faster than my CPU !

                    and you call this: "performance is not good" LOL... what a "lie"
                    Sigh...

                    OK, logic 101. My statement was "performance was not good in a lot of common cases". Your identification of a case where performance *is* good does not disprove my statement and certainly does not make it a lie.

                    Originally posted by Qaridarium View Post
                    i'm sure there is room for improvements. maybe the hd4000 performance grows in the future.
                    and you can ask him what is is using.
                    You are making the claim that the shader compiler is responsible for the performance difference (which contradicts all our experiences so far) then basing conclusions about our evil-ness on that claim, so perhaps you could ask him ? You only base your arguments on "facts", correct ?
                    Last edited by bridgman; 06-13-2012, 06:54 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                      Sigh...

                      OK, logic 101. My statement was "performance was not good in a lot of common cases". Your identification of a case where performance *is* good does not disprove my statement and certainly does not make it a lie.
                      no you are wrong because i show up facts REAL benchmarks and you just claim stuff without sources.
                      show me your real benchmarks to prove your "Claims"
                      bitcoin is not a calculation of special case other applications do the same calculations.
                      in my point of view you are disproved until you show me benchmarks with other results.
                      but i think you "can't" because my card is so "Powerful"
                      the "Radeon HD 4870 X2" for example is so powerfull this card outperform my CPU in factor 20

                      but you will stil claim that its not usefull to have a acceleration of factor "20"


                      Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                      re: shader compiler -- you are making the claim that the shader compiler is responsible for the performance difference (which contradicts all our experiences so far) then basing conclusions about our evil-ness on that claim, so perhaps you could ask him ? You only base your arguments on "facts", correct ?
                      source: http://phoronix.com/forums/showthrea...n-driver/page2

                      Pontostroy:"pentium g620
                      opensuse + my repo with git mesa, kernel, xf86-drivers, etc.
                      Shader caching and llvm shader compiler are enabled."

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                      • #26
                        you should not forget that even such cheap intel pentium cpus have got a faster single core speed than highend amd ones... usually games only use 1-2 core(s).

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Qaridarium View Post
                          but you will stil claim that its not usefull to have a acceleration of factor "20"
                          No, I claimed nothing of the sort. I said two things :

                          - performance was poor in a lot of common cases (or something like that)

                          - we were not including HD4000 OpenCL support in the initial work we were doing

                          Nothing more.

                          Originally posted by Qaridarium View Post
                          Thanks. I asked him about whether he saw a performance diff from enabling the LLVM shader compiler.

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                          • #28
                            bridgeman + Q

                            Greatest couple in the history of open-source graphics drivers discussions ever, seriously!

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                              No, I claimed nothing of the sort. I said two things :

                              - performance was poor in a lot of common cases (or something like that)
                              prove this!... and i'm sure you "can't"
                              you only don't get a acceleration on lowend cards like hd4350 or hd4550.
                              you need at minimum a hd4650 to get a speed up compared to the cpu.
                              and this is your real secret point you claim linux users only use lowend hardware and on lowend hardware the hd4000 generation can not "accelerate"
                              anything above hd4650 is much faster than the "CPU"

                              Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                              - we were not including HD4000 OpenCL support in the initial work we were doing
                              Nothing more.
                              and again i know this long time before you write about this here in the forum.
                              i'm not stupid.

                              Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                              Thanks. I asked him about whether he saw a performance diff from enabling the LLVM shader compiler.
                              thank you... maybe we get useful informations.
                              Last edited by Qaridarium; 06-13-2012, 07:18 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Linuxxx View Post
                                Greatest couple in the history of open-source graphics drivers discussions ever, seriously!
                                LOL :-) and sometimes useful informations are created out of the battles

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