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The Ideal (Hypothetical) Gaming Processor

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Pyre Vulpimorph View Post
    The point of this thread, really, was so I can learn more about how modern games work. Specifically, what the CPU is left doing while the GPU is busy rendering frames. So, let's shoot for the moon and say my client's system will include a Radeon HD 7870 (pitcarin) GPU, and "normal" output resolution is going to be 1920x1080p.
    I think the best thing you can do to learn how a modern game works is to make one. Failing that (time pressure is a good reason why that's not feasible), go talk to game developers. Encompass the full range - indie, AAA, 2D, 3D, web browser based, desktop based, console based, mobile based, the works. Look at multi vs single threading, and how engines differ with that. Look at what OpenGL does across the different platforms. Look at actual engines and profile them (ogre, irrlicht, id software stuff, if you can't get numbers from elsewhere). Look at the power requirements, heat dissipation, active or passive cooling, etc etc etc. Look at peripherals (how many controllers are attached, etc).
    And also, talk to game developers about what they currently have, what problems they have to work around, and what they would like to have. Don't just look at things such as "virtualised textures", "cache control for data streaming", "z-buffer access", but also what languages to program in, if there's an OS to work with (or around), support, compilers, toolkits, the works. It's not just about the hardware, but software support too.

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    • #92
      @Pyre Vulpimorph: Why exactly are you focused on the CPU part? If you want to learn how modern games work you should probably take a look at 1. what they are doing, 2. how they are doing it, and finally "where" they are doing it (CPU/GPU). Like mirv said, either take a look at some open source games or ask people actually involved in such things.

      Basically anything aside from graphics is done on the CPU. This includes loading and saving stuff (levels, models, textures, ...), AI, input processing, game logic (path finding, scripted events, ...). Physics is usually also done on the CPU unless you're using a GPU that supports it.

      Originally posted by Qaridarium View Post
      Logic is a ultimate truth and if nativ speakers are not logical there thinking are damaned and this is a fact! this is right for all languages only in the mad-house this is wrong. "Language" is a lifing beeing you can fix that irratonal unlogic stuff.
      Yes, language is a living thing. But it's also an expression of cultural differences. You may be able to express a complex thought with a single word in one language while you need several sentences in another. Aside from that: Just because you're not fluent in a foreign language does not make it illogic (unlogic is not a word). If "noise" is the correct word to use in a given context this does not make it "wrong" just because you think it should be "murmuring". Instead of insulting native speakers, try actually learning their language to a sufficient degree?

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      • #93
        Qaridarium how would your ray trace engine handle vsync? Because you know if you dont use vsync your image will have tears.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Pickle View Post
          Qaridarium how would your ray trace engine handle vsync? Because you know if you dont use vsync your image will have tears.
          a engine forced to the screen frame rate as a deathline of "realtime" do have a natural vsync ---

          if you get tearing then your realtime engine fail completely-

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Wildfire View Post
            Yes, language is a living thing. But it's also an expression of cultural differences. You may be able to express a complex thought with a single word in one language while you need several sentences in another. Aside from that: Just because you're not fluent in a foreign language does not make it illogic (unlogic is not a word). Instead of insulting native speakers,
            Originally posted by Wildfire View Post
            try actually learning their language to a sufficient degree?
            why not ask this google translate ?

            Originally posted by Wildfire View Post
            If "noise" is the correct word to use in a given context this does not make it "wrong" just because you think it should be "murmuring
            google image search prove it other people also use murmuring for the same
            maybe the english language is not that constistent.


            Originally posted by Wildfire View Post
            illogic (unlogic is not a word)
            Unlogik is a german word: http://de.wikiquote.org/wiki/Unlogik its a combination of 2 fragmentation of un-logik
            and in english logic is writen with C and "undo" is the same in english its a combination of 2 fragmentations un-do

            unlogic is "Right" and valid if the language is Logic!

            if this is wrong then undo is writen ido? yes the new I-Apple speach...

            also google translate gives me a good fall back in this point because google translate don't translate illogic to german....

            but google translate translate unlogic to the German:Unlogik

            this means Google translate really think unlogic is the translation for UNLOGIK

            this means ilogic is wrong.

            also there is no wikipedia article about ilogic and no wikiquote article and no wikionary article about ilogic !

            but there are nativ speakers using unlogic for example: http://startrekunlogic.wikia.com/wik...:_Unlogic_Wiki

            or http://www.beatportal.com/artists/unlogic/

            this means unlogic is a valid english word.

            this means you try to teach me the english language but your proving skill is worst.,

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Qaridarium View Post
              a engine forced to the screen frame rate as a deathline of "realtime" do have a natural vsync ---

              if you get tearing then your realtime engine fail completely-
              Never heard of a deathline, sounds bad though

              Can you engine support double buffering?

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Wildfire View Post
                illogic (unlogic is not a word).
                hey i search some more time on this tropic and my Dyslexia hit me i search for ilogic LOL ..

                yes Illogic is also right but unlogic is not wrong. both are posible.

                and google translate do it right and turn illogic to Unlogik

                so yes my Dyslexia hit me here sorry.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by Pickle View Post
                  Never heard of a deathline, sounds bad though

                  Can you engine support double buffering?
                  LOL... double buffering is trivial... double buffering only mean your screen frame buffer is not the engine frame buffer.

                  real time means the rendering is finished in time to push the data to the output buffer.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Pickle View Post
                    Qaridarium how would your ray trace engine handle vsync? Because you know if you dont use vsync your image will have tears.
                    This Q's raytracer isn't "hard real-time" raytracer. The renderer is synchronized to display and every frame is rendered as long as it has time before next display refresh.

                    Comment


                    • real time means the rendering is finished in time to push the data to the output buffer.
                      ok there we have it, you are constructing a final image to put into the buffer to be displayed.

                      Your frames per second would be how often you do this complete transfer per second.
                      You would have tearing because your transfer is not in sync with the screen refresh rate. (meaning your updating the frame buffer as the hardware reads it to display on the screen)
                      You use murmuring to decrease the time to render, thus maintaining a frame rate or higher framerate than without murmuring.

                      Ray tracing is no different than rasterization in that it does computational work in order to produce a 2d image for display. Both can use different techniques to shorten the time it takes to produce the final image. In fact your murmuring is basically the same idea as level of detail or reducing screen resolution.

                      Both can have "unlimited fps" based on how they are written, ray tracing is limited by the CPU and rasterization is limited by the GPU. I have a simple game engine that uses rasterization and it can produce as many images as the GPU can calculate. Of course I can also limit it to vysnc.

                      This Q's raytracer isn't "hard real-time" raytracer. The renderer is synchronized to display and every frame is rendered as long as it has time before next display refresh.
                      Petteri then the Q's raytracer doesnt support "unlimited fps"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Pickle View Post
                        Petteri then the Q's raytracer doesnt support "unlimited fps"
                        I know. I just ignore the first 6-7 pages to avoid headache.

                        The point seems to be that it is easy to guarantee fixed rendering times (fps) with raytracer (especially if random mess is considered to be correct output )
                        If we are not going to extremes, it does make some sense because slight noise in image (murmuring) isn't as annoying as judder and stutter caused by changing rendering times.

                        But it isn't a magical solution because after making fps synced to display, you have to adjust rendering resolution, refresh rate or raytracing parameters to get the amount of murmuring down.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Pickle View Post
                          ok there we have it, you are constructing a final image to put into the buffer to be displayed. Petteri then the Q's raytracer doesnt support "unlimited fps"
                          The "big idea" behind Q's hypothetical raytracer is that it stops constructing the image once a predefined timelimit elapses. If you set the timelimit to 0 it stops constructing the image immediately (hence a blank screen), but your framerate is theoretically "unlimited". The "murmuring rate" simply expresses how many rays the raytracer manages trace before the timelimit elapses. You can't do both vsync and unlimited, because vsync equals a timelimit > 0.

                          I can't believe I'm actually discussing language and grammar on Phoronix...

                          Originally posted by Qaridarium View Post
                          Unlogik is a german word: http://de.wikiquote.org/wiki/Unlogik its a combination of 2 fragmentation of un-logik
                          and in english logic is writen with C and "undo" is the same in english its a combination of 2 fragmentations un-do
                          Yes, great, Unlogik being a German word totally proves that it absolutely must exist in the English dictionary, my fault

                          If you want to discuss the English language try using a dictionary like http://www.english-dictionary.us/meaning/unlogic.asp, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unlogic or http://dictionary.cambridge.org/spel...ish/?q=unlogic. None of these know "unlogic" as a word.

                          The link to "http://www.beatportal.com/artists/unlogic/" on the other hand doesn't prove anything. This is an artist's username for crying out loud. Yes you can also find examples of people using "unlogic" because they're just as confused by different prefixes as you are. That doesn't make its usage correct (Maybe it will be in the future, because natural languages evolve). Your Star Trek wiki cites a fan made movie. They used "unlogic" as a noun to define something that is the opposite of logic (also a noun), which is not necessarily the same as illogical (an adjective). Simply put: They made that word up because it makes sense in their context.

                          http://translate.google.de/#en|de|illogic, woops, it translates to Unlogik. At also translates unlogic because it’s a common spelling mistake.
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic (Try searching the article for examples of illogic).

                          Btw, go ahead and translate my first sentence to German using Google. Doesn’t that translation look unnatural to you? You can make out what it says, but it sounds weird. And on some occasions machine translations can be either wrong or even possibly insulting.
                          Last edited by Wildfire; 03-14-2012, 01:40 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Wildfire View Post
                            Your Star Trek wiki cites a fan made movie. They used "unlogic" as a noun to define something that is the opposite of logic (also a noun), which is not necessarily the same as illogical (an adjective). Simply put: They made that word up because it makes sense in their context.
                            i write the same with a friend hours ago and she make the same mistake as you do.
                            she also think the adjective illogical is right in the first time.
                            but then after a long fight i called here dump and stupid and other bad names she get the point noun vs adjective.
                            this means illogical is wrong and unlogic is right because i translate a german noun to a english noun and not to a adjective.

                            and you also do this mistake "Unlogik" is a noun not a adjectiv
                            but there is another way to prove it wrong.

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationality
                            vs
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

                            the words Logic and Rationality are incompatible words
                            this means irrational and unlogical are not the SAME!
                            Rational is not the same as Logical!
                            it can be Rational to be unlogical!
                            and Rationality can be unlogical!

                            Originally posted by Wildfire View Post
                            Yes, great, Unlogik being a German word totally proves that it absolutely must exist in the English dictionary, my fault
                            this link was only to make sure you unterstand what kind of german word i try to write.

                            and the german word was a "Noun" not "adjectiv" and the german word was a word based on the word "Logic" not based on the word "Rationality"

                            Originally posted by Wildfire View Post
                            If you want to discuss the English language try using a dictionary like http://www.english-dictionary.us/meaning/unlogic.asp, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unlogic or http://dictionary.cambridge.org/spel...ish/?q=unlogic. None of these know "unlogic" as a word.
                            this only prove these sources are bad ! because the Logic and the Rationality prove it within my links.

                            you just acting unlogicaly and irrationaly if you don't accept my prove.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Qaridarium View Post
                              [...] but then after a long fight i called here dump and stupid and other bad names she get the point noun vs adjective.
                              this means illogical is wrong and unlogic is right because i translate a german noun to a english noun and not to a adjective.
                              Natural languages need not be symmetrical. This means not every word in one language must have an exact representation in another language. This is what I meant when I said it may be possible to express something with a single word in English while you need several words in German (and vice versa).

                              In other words: There are two nouns in German, "Logik" and "Unlogik", but this does not mean there need to be two nouns in English as well. There either is logic or there is an absence of logic. There is no real opposite, hence no "unlogic". Something can be illogical if it doesn't follow a certain logic (which means there is an absence of logic), but that doesn't make it "unlogic". The word does exist in German because it makes certain things easier to express, but if you think about it logically, the word Unlogik actually makes no sense.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Wildfire View Post
                                Natural languages need not be symmetrical. This means not every word in one language must have an exact representation in another language. This is what I meant when I said it may be possible to express something with a single word in English while you need several words in German (and vice versa).

                                In other words: There are two nouns in German, "Logik" and "Unlogik", but this does not mean there need to be two nouns in English as well. There either is logic or there is an absence of logic. There is no real opposite, hence no "unlogic". Something can be illogical if it doesn't follow a certain logic (which means there is an absence of logic), but that doesn't make it "unlogic". The word does exist in German because it makes certain things easier to express, but if you think about it logically, the word Unlogik actually makes no sense.
                                again FUD i use the english wikipedia to show you there is a difference between Logic and Rationality!
                                because of this you can not use rational for logic!
                                because its not the same!

                                also FUD... in german a noun is a noun like in english is a noun a noun you can't speak a noun like a adjectiv just because you are to stupid to know the noun version of the word!

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