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AMD Radeon, NVIDIA GeForce Linux Comparison For July 2013

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Kivada View Post
    Output latency matters for visual fluidity, tearing is not desired at all.

    Input lag is more an issue with the monitor type you are using, but it's not the be all end all that "elite" gamers claim it to be, since most of what they are nitpicking about is at timescales so small that you can't possibly react fast enough to the visual input. I.E. visual data hits eyeball>brain processes visual data and sends command to hand>hand completes action. Thats the way it works since most current games aren't 100% pre-defined and timing based like Super Mario, where if you want to beat the game perfectly you have to know the game so good you initiate the actions before you see them because you already know where they are and what needs to be done.

    Not to mention that they make the false assumption that LCD screens ever display at more then 60FPS/Hz. No matter the Hz rate the screen's don't display any faster, 240Hz is done by flickering the backlight to simulate the framerate of the old filming standards like 24 FPS film and 29.9 FPS broadcast TV. It's just a trick being played on your eyes.

    Yes, I'm fully aware that the human eye can actually detect framerates of over 100FPS, but no consumer gear is designed to use more then 60FPS/Hz.

    Put it this way, if input lag mattered so much nobody would be any good at console games and thats clearly not the case.



    Thats because Larabel has chased off a large portion of his reader base over the years with his lame reporting and bad reviews. Theres a reason that if you post a link to Phoronix on most Linux sites it goes ignored or the poster is denigrated for posting it.

    It's like posting a link to Faux "News" or Prison Planet on any subject as a serious source.



    It's his site, but he is the only face of Linux benchmarking, it's his damn job to not make Linux users look like a bunch of morons. Larabel is the current status quo of Linux benchmarking and he's terrible at it.

    I'm too busy with my work in politics(I'm not a politician, but I have worked for a few, I have no desire to run for office.) to start my own site else I would. it's a 12-18+ hour a day job, I've pulled more then a few 36+ hour runs as well, but I love it. Interesting people, travel a bit, talk with celebrities and other people that most people only ever get to see on TV, learn how things actually get done.(This varies wildly depending on what level or levels of government you are working with and what who is in what seats, most defiantly not a job for those that can't think very fast or have excellent recall. Remember, the staff or activists do the work, the politician sells it to the other politicians or the public.)

    If you are wondering how I find time to post, simple, the work isn't constant and I can remote desktop into my home machine to post. Yes, I run Linux on my work laptop, with Windows7 rarely used in a VM for those times when Wine and ReactOS fail me.

    As before, if you think I'm a fan of anything Microsoft you are sorely mistaken, but the windows review sites are the only ones to go to to find any real information at all about anything hardware related because Larabel is so shit at his job. Not all the sites are paid for, though there are ones where it's stupidly obvious like Tom's Hardware.
    Really now... my Radeon HD 7950 has always gotten 200-300+ FPS in most games on Windows with all settings maxed out at 1080p. You may say that HDTVs flicker black (which 240Hz is actually 120Hz with black which is still more than 60Hz) but LCD monitors, you know, the things people actually play PC games on, don't use that trick. You can buy a 120Hz LCD monitor and it will be a lot more fluid than a 60Hz monitor so long as your GPU is capable of doing it, like mine.

    His benchmarking is fine, it's not like you can go wrong with something as simple as a benchmark. Also, no one cares about your life story.
    Last edited by mmstick; 07-25-2013, 06:04 AM.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Kivada View Post
      Output latency matters for visual fluidity, tearing is not desired at all.

      Input lag is more an issue with the monitor type you are using, but it's not the be all end all that "elite" gamers claim it to be, since most of what they are nitpicking about is at timescales so small that you can't possibly react fast enough to the visual input. I.E. visual data hits eyeball>brain processes visual data and sends command to hand>hand completes action. Thats the way it works since most current games aren't 100% pre-defined and timing based like Super Mario, where if you want to beat the game perfectly you have to know the game so good you initiate the actions before you see them because you already know where they are and what needs to be done.
      I'm not talking about twitch actions. I'm talking about input lag. You see a button, you click the button, but you only see the button being clicked 200ms later. That's input lag. And it's very, very annoying.

      The screen does not matter in input lag. Twitch reactions are different, they are only half about input lag, half about output lag.

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      • #48
        Nice minimum framerate in OpenArena I doubt it's representative of the actual gameplay though.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by mmstick View Post
          Really now... my Radeon HD 7950 has always gotten 200-300+ FPS in most games on Windows with all settings maxed out at 1080p. You may say that HDTVs flicker black (which 240Hz is actually 120Hz with black which is still more than 60Hz) but LCD monitors, you know, the things people actually play PC games on, don't use that trick. You can buy a 120Hz LCD monitor and it will be a lot more fluid than a 60Hz monitor so long as your GPU is capable of doing it, like mine.

          His benchmarking is fine, it's not like you can go wrong with something as simple as a benchmark. Also, no one cares about your life story.
          Nope, it's still flickering to simulate a perceived higher framerate. The DVI, HDMI and Displayport connection standards where never designed to go higher then 60FPS/Hz. With the updates for 4K/QFHD resolutions the extra bandwidth is there for the increased resolution and the increase to 10-bit color, not the framerate.

          That your GPU can pit out frames that fast is irrelevant to this fact. The added rendering power is being wasted as heat and power draw if you aren't running detail setting high enough or are not using vSync as at 200 FPS your screen is still only refreshing every 3.33 renders, which can result in tearing.

          Frame latency, minimum framerate and average framerate are the only metrics that matter. Max framerate is completely and utterly pointless since you can measure that by facing a static wall and not moving.

          Originally posted by curaga View Post
          I'm not talking about twitch actions. I'm talking about input lag. You see a button, you click the button, but you only see the button being clicked 200ms later. That's input lag. And it's very, very annoying.

          The screen does not matter in input lag. Twitch reactions are different, they are only half about input lag, half about output lag.
          Wrong, they are both one and the same, you can't react to what you don't know is happening, the chain of events is constant. If your input lag is so bad try switching to USB, it's sample rate is much faster then that of PS/2 devices. It's that, or your reaction times aren't nearly as fast as you think Spiderman.

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          • #50
            There is a certain irony in having a person in government politics criticize Michael for being lazy and terrible at his work and for bringing a bad name to Linux.

            Let me ask some rhetorical questions. (Which means I know the answer already, so nobody has to answer them for me.)

            Isn't the entire point of modern government politics to demagogue the opponent, to divide the nation's people, to sufficiently pull the wool over their eyes to garner an implicit consent for the politician's criminal activity? Isn't the entire driving force behind today's politicians a certain psychotic megalomania that dismisses civic duty and statesmanship in favor of personal gain? Is not a successful political campaign regarded as one that makes its public dumb, dumberer, and dumbest as humanly possible? Really, at the end of the day, isn't it true that politics is about tearing down the nation to vault oneself up, and to carve out a lifestyle of power and influence off the backs of the regular working guy, much like a parasite siphons the life from a host organism?

            Maybe Mr. Larabel isn't perfect but if he's making an honest living I'm not sure he's due the shame that's owed a person who's involved in... ohh... let's say... government-sanctioned criminal enterprise.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by johnc View Post
              There is a certain irony in having a person in government politics criticize Michael for being lazy and terrible at his work and for bringing a bad name to Linux.

              Let me ask some rhetorical questions. (Which means I know the answer already, so nobody has to answer them for me.)

              Isn't the entire point of modern government politics to demagogue the opponent, to divide the nation's people, to sufficiently pull the wool over their eyes to garner an implicit consent for the politician's criminal activity? Isn't the entire driving force behind today's politicians a certain psychotic megalomania that dismisses civic duty and statesmanship in favor of personal gain? Is not a successful political campaign regarded as one that makes its public dumb, dumberer, and dumbest as humanly possible? Really, at the end of the day, isn't it true that politics is about tearing down the nation to vault oneself up, and to carve out a lifestyle of power and influence off the backs of the regular working guy, much like a parasite siphons the life from a host organism?

              Maybe Mr. Larabel isn't perfect but if he's making an honest living I'm not sure he's due the shame that's owed a person who's involved in... ohh... let's say... government-sanctioned criminal enterprise.
              "government-sanctioned criminal enterprise" and taking 32mil in cash from indiegogo? also when it's not from a indie Developer but a multi partner enterprise..

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by johnc View Post
                There is a certain irony in having a person in government politics criticize Michael for being lazy and terrible at his work and for bringing a bad name to Linux.

                Let me ask some rhetorical questions. (Which means I know the answer already, so nobody has to answer them for me.)

                Isn't the entire point of modern government politics to demagogue the opponent, to divide the nation's people, to sufficiently pull the wool over their eyes to garner an implicit consent for the politician's criminal activity? Isn't the entire driving force behind today's politicians a certain psychotic megalomania that dismisses civic duty and statesmanship in favor of personal gain? Is not a successful political campaign regarded as one that makes its public dumb, dumberer, and dumbest as humanly possible? Really, at the end of the day, isn't it true that politics is about tearing down the nation to vault oneself up, and to carve out a lifestyle of power and influence off the backs of the regular working guy, much like a parasite siphons the life from a host organism?

                Maybe Mr. Larabel isn't perfect but if he's making an honest living I'm not sure he's due the shame that's owed a person who's involved in... ohh... let's say... government-sanctioned criminal enterprise.
                My, what a twisted view of politics you have. Contrary to popular belief there are actually activist groups and politicians out there working for the little guy, they just never get media coverage. Whats your alternative? No government = the strongest man wins, good luck getting anything done with a bunch of warlords vying for control like so many parts of the world have had in place of an actual government.

                Depends on the politician you are working for. If you want actual information instead of hyperbolic rhetoric just look at who is spending what money where. I can guarantee you that the majority that are the way you describe belong to one particular party that gets incredible amounts of money from corporations to do things that will harm the poor for corporate gain.

                As for the next statement. Blame the media, they condense everything down to a 10 second sound bite so they can get back to their regularly scheduled celebutard infotainment instead of actually doing real news work. Try actually going to th functions and learning how things actually happen and how hard it is to get the actual information in the hands of the public because the news wont do so. Remember, the news is part of the entertainment and advertising wings of media corporations these days, it's in their interest to make every race look like a dead heat to keep uneducated eyeballs glued to their idiot boxes.

                Ok, so what is "government-sanctioned criminal enterprise" about community organizing, registering legal voters, helping write bills that are completely constitutional etc? I've never done anything illegal in my line of work, never been asked to do so and would never take a job from someone that would.


                TL;DR


                Larabel isn't perfect, but he's the only one and there is allot he could do better if he actually tried. As the only face of Linux benchmarking it is his duty to do so. But instead he whines and does the bare minimum then laments why nobody takes the site seriously. Well it's hard to take Phoronix seriously when Larabel doesn't.

                This is as far off topic as I'm going to let you go. I won't reply to any more inquires on me or politics.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by LinuxGamer View Post
                  "government-sanctioned criminal enterprise" and taking 32mil in cash from indiegogo? also when it's not from a indie Developer but a multi partner enterprise..
                  Um, what are you talking about?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Kivada View Post
                    Wrong, they are both one and the same, you can't react to what you don't know is happening, the chain of events is constant. If your input lag is so bad try switching to USB, it's sample rate is much faster then that of PS/2 devices. It's that, or your reaction times aren't nearly as fast as you think Spiderman.
                    There's no need to twitch react. The button stands still for several seconds before you decide to click it. I wonder what's so confusing here, the button's not running away from you. I repeat, this is not about twitch actions.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Maybe the confusion is about what happens? For the sake of discussion, pressing the button does some action that's verifiable through other means than the screen, playing a sound, fetching a file over the network, or such.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Kivada View Post
                        Nope, it's still flickering to simulate a perceived higher framerate. The DVI, HDMI and Displayport connection standards where never designed to go higher then 60FPS/Hz. With the updates for 4K/QFHD resolutions the extra bandwidth is there for the increased resolution and the increase to 10-bit color, not the framerate.

                        That your GPU can pit out frames that fast is irrelevant to this fact. The added rendering power is being wasted as heat and power draw if you aren't running detail setting high enough or are not using vSync as at 200 FPS your screen is still only refreshing every 3.33 renders, which can result in tearing.

                        Frame latency, minimum framerate and average framerate are the only metrics that matter. Max framerate is completely and utterly pointless since you can measure that by facing a static wall and not moving.



                        Wrong, they are both one and the same, you can't react to what you don't know is happening, the chain of events is constant. If your input lag is so bad try switching to USB, it's sample rate is much faster then that of PS/2 devices. It's that, or your reaction times aren't nearly as fast as you think Spiderman.
                        Wrong, it is not 'flickering' to simulate anything at all. You really don't seem to understand the technology behind anything here. At the length of cable I use, 120Hz is more than doable and already being achieved. You can sit there and be in denial all day long but it won't change the fact that you are completely wrong. There is no screen tearing at all either. Since when was this conversation about 'facing a static wall'? My FPS is so high that I always hit the 300 FPS cap of the source engine with everything maxed and on a 32 man server in the heat of battle. Also, PS/2 is better than USB because it does not need to poll and supports an unlimited amount of key presses.
                        Last edited by mmstick; 07-25-2013, 06:13 PM.

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