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  • #31

    What what image board is this again?

    Gaming push the bounds of technology and create innovation, just like porn
    Last edited by AJenbo; 06-21-2012, 12:09 PM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by AJenbo View Post
      "Good enough for me" != "Truble free"
      Besides the article seams to be written in a gaming company context witch makes most of your reply either invalid or off topic.
      "good enough" == TROUBLE FREE.
      "not good enough" == TROUBLE.

      BTW: I ***NEVER ONCE*** said "good enough", so I'm not sure why you quoted me.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by the article
        Upgrading the graphics stack when it comes to the mainline open-source drivers requires upgrading the Linux kernel
        lol, wut???

        Please tell me there's a mistake in there somewhere.

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        • #34
          I am a Fedora user using the R600g driver for gaming. As such, I can understand both perspectives here.

          In general though, in terms of infrastructure, I think Linux does have a better driver infrastructure than Windows, especially the newer ones that require everything to be signed by Microsoft before even being released. When a driver on Linux is a proper Linux driver (free software and in-kernel) it will usually work better out of the box and be maintained far longer than on Windows.

          Case in point, I know someone with an older Compaq/HP Laptop who can only use sound on Windows 7 through USB headsets because HP never released a Windows 7 driver for her sound card despite insisting several times that they would. Meanwhile, I could put Fedora on that thing and everything would be working perfectly, sound, video and everything. It is even on R300g, so graphics should be pretty much out of the box too. This is part of the reason why Linux is popular on older machines.

          That being said, as it stands, I fully recognize that my Radeon HD 4670 is not giving me the full performance of the hardware at the moment. It is certainly enough that I can stand it, especially since I tend to play older games or indie games, but I have done some more demanding stuff on it such as Trine 2 and I will be playing Amnesia now that I have HIB V. But why am I not getting full performance if Linux has better infrastructure?

          Well, the best made framework in the world is only as good as the people who use it, and unfortunately in these areas not enough developers are putting work in to contribute. It is not an issue of system faults, except in a few choice circumstances, but simply because no one has put the effort in to develop for Linux.

          One good idea posted on here was to do something like what Microsoft and Apple do with singed drivers, but instead of using it as a restriction merely use it as a certification. For instance, some larger body such as the Linux Foundation could verify and approve certain hardware on Linux, and then manufactures can brag that it is Linux certified or whatever. Major vendors such as Red Hat or Canonical could even contribute financially to a fund ran by the people behind this in order to get more and more vendors interested and getting their hardware certified. It would certainly be an interesting idea.

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          • #35
            I was summersing/pharafrasing.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
              I have no choice, I have to contradict the majority (or all of) that list.

              -Point OSS drivers are slower: So what? They're plenty fast enough for the VAST majority of users, who DON'T use their computers for stupid crap like playing games.
              -Point OSS drivers have fewer features: Same as previous point -- SO WHAT? They do what they need to do.
              -Point difficult to configure drivers: Huh? Not at all. KMS = automatic config in VAST majority of cases, tweaking at GUI System Settings --> Display.
              Games aren't the only type of apps that require (or it is prefered) to have fast drivers. The OSS (GFX) drivers not being feature complete and slower is a problem, if you are doing anything but basic crap. I do however, agree for a simple setup drivers aren't always hard to configure...however, this changes when doing anything remotely specific. ie: i have to do extra manual work to have my soundcard work the way it does in MacOSX OOTB. GFX cards can be harder to setup with multi-display setups. (including HDMI setups with AVRs).

              it sounds to me, that you just don't require anything special, which essentially makes your points 'pointless'.

              Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
              -Point difficult to upgrade drivers: Couldn't be more wrong. "yum update" --> Done.
              this is true of most distros. In Archlinux to upgrade my Nvidia binary driver (patched for MSI and RT) is a single command to install. ie: effortless

              Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
              -Point documentation != developers: Development is plenty fast enough to satisfy virtually everyone.
              Sometimes true, but not always. I can't even begin to count how many times i've had to dig around the web, to find some piece of information about something i was using. Documentation is decent in most cases, though.

              Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
              -Point same-day support: It is impossible to ACTUALLY HAVE hardware on the same day it is released, so this point is irrelevant.
              How is it impossible, exactly?! Sometimes, code hits before hardware is even released. So how can this be impossible?

              Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
              -Point sound cards slow to support: Never heard of this before. Every sound card I've EVER seen has worked fully out of the box.
              Clearly, you haven't worked with enough soundcards to have a clue what you are talking about. I've had numerous problems with MOBO soundcards over the years, and support for USB / firewire / PCI is a joke compared to Mac or Windows. So many vendors don't support Linux at all, and other drivers are hack jobs that barely work. Some require manual intervention to be able to use, and can be a pain. Also, and this really sucks! - many linux soundcard drivers only support some parts of a given sound card, and some can't even use higher quality sample rates. Some usb2.0 cards that could - are often buggy with USB2.0 as well - which is a serious issue for anyone who plans on using multitrack-recording (using multiple inputs/captures.

              Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
              -Point poor peripheral support: If you have ever seen a keyboard or mouse that did NOT work in Linux, let me know about it and I'll tell you how to PLUG IT IN. MUCH more unusual equipment than a simple keyboard or mouse works perfectly.... scanners, webcams, etc.
              I've had issues every single time i buy a new Wacom Tablet. This includes not only driver issues, but even Xorg issues - and still to this day, my multi-touch tablet works 3x better in MacOSX OOTB - no fussing around at all... I've had issues with Webcams (recently). I've had issues with scanners (in the past). As for keyboards and mice - yes they usually work as expected - but those are only 2 examples of 'generic peripherals'. Try working with less common stuff, and then get back to us!

              Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
              Wifi works, web cams work (strangly, I have several computers with webcams, including laptops built in, and the all work 100%), Even a BLUETOOTH 3 modules -- working.
              wifi - totally depends, there are still people wrapping windows drivers (ndis), and then there are poorly reverse-engineered drivers that some users are stuck with, that are buggy and suck. Bluetooth works great over here though - but it didn't work properly with my Wiimote OOTB - i had to build some software from sources, to get it to work the way i wanted it too.

              Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
              No weird drivers, nothing to install.
              Just drop in the install disk and EVERYTHING is up 100% without exception.
              I just listed a bunch of exceptions.

              I am happy droidhacker that you never experience any problems, but lots of people do - and this IS a weak area / problematic part of linux - that you seem to just completely ignore as being valid, since you personally don't have any problems. How ignorant of you :\

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                One good idea posted on here was to do something like what Microsoft and Apple do with singed drivers, but instead of using it as a restriction merely use it as a certification. For instance, some larger body such as the Linux Foundation could verify and approve certain hardware on Linux, and then manufactures can brag that it is Linux certified or whatever. Major vendors such as Red Hat or Canonical could even contribute financially to a fund ran by the people behind this in order to get more and more vendors interested and getting their hardware certified. It would certainly be an interesting idea.
                One problem with that solution is that you have to make the company want the certification logo. With Windows you have the insentive that there is a large user base looking for new hardware to work with there new OS. Not so much on Linux I would say.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Veerappan View Post
                  I know it's feeding him, but he looks hungry...
                  You're a moron.

                  Point OSS drivers are slower: So what? They're plenty fast enough for the VAST majority of users, who DON'T use their computers for stupid crap like playing games.

                  - What about professionals who want to do 3D rendering, people who hardware-accelerated video playback (via GL/CL or hardware blocks). Faster drivers are also probably more efficient drivers, which could mean better battery life on laptops.
                  Ok, so... one in... a million users... does professional 3D rendering. They PAY for support from the hardware manufacturers on appropriate hardware.
                  Hardware accelerated video playback: works out of the box for my crystalhd... Not sure what your point is here.

                  Point OSS drivers have fewer features: Same as previous point -- SO WHAT? They do what they need to do.

                  - I'd like MSAA, lower power usage, complete OpenCL support, etc.. The OSS drivers provide a composited desktop and some performance, but there's still room for improvement and implementation of additional/newer standards.
                  For zero benefit to 99.9999% of users. Irrelevant.

                  Point difficult to configure drivers: Huh? Not at all. KMS = automatic config in VAST majority of cases, tweaking at GUI System Settings --> Display.

                  - Alright, so where do I configure TV-out, power profiles, Anti-Aliasing settings, Anisotropic settings, video decode post-processing, and the host of other options that catalyst/nvidia give you (especially under windows).
                  TV-out: you plug your tv in, you click the "detect displays" button, and enable. Wow. That so hard?
                  The rest of the crap you list is either automatic or not something that anybody would actually be interested in.

                  Point documentation != developers: Development is plenty fast enough to satisfy virtually everyone.

                  - The quantity of articles here on Phoronix showing the OSS drivers still playing catch-up and the number of discussion threads attached to them indicate otherwise.
                  And the fact that I can just take ANY brand new computer from the store, drop in the F17 install disk, and end up with a FULLY functional desktop, PROVES that you haven't a leg to stand on with that one.

                  Point linux power consumption > microshit: LIES. I briefly ran microshit7 on my newly acquired laptop to update the BT module in my car... it ran the CPU fan at no less than 50% the entire time. Installed Fedora 17 with discrete GPU disabled, and fan OFF 90%+ of the time, briefly comes on MINIMUM speed when the temp exceeds 40. I DARE YOU to tell me that its using more power in Linux.

                  - Good for you, you've got a laptop that was broken in windows and happens to work in Linux. My laptop gets 2-3 hours of battery life in Linux, 4+ in windows, and 5+ in MacOS.
                  LMAO!!! Automatically contradict any provided evidence as "outlier" when evidence is available proving that you are actually WRONG.

                  Point sound cards slow to support: Never heard of this before. Every sound card I've EVER seen has worked fully out of the box.

                  - Most sound cards I've used have worked correctly out of the box, but some HDMI audio has required waiting for development or setting kernel parameters to get them to work.
                  What's your point? And who is waiting?

                  Point poor printer support: That's really REALLY funny... because I just did a fresh F17 install on my new laptop, and I didn't have to do **ANYTHING** to set up the (NETWORK/WIFI laser) printer. File --> Print, and guess what? It already had the printer configured without me having to DO ANYTHING.

                  - Lucky. My Lexmark S505 works wonderfully in Windows/MacOS, but the Linux drivers that Lexmark provides refuse to work on Mint 13 x86-64.
                  Lexmark: enough said. Your printer is a piece of shit in ANY OS.

                  Point poor peripheral support: If you have ever seen a keyboard or mouse that did NOT work in Linux, let me know about it and I'll tell you how to PLUG IT IN. MUCH more unusual equipment than a simple keyboard or mouse works perfectly.... scanners, webcams, etc.

                  - The basic parts of all of my keyboards/mice work, but my Logitech MX Revolution requires 3rd party, unmaintained software to get most of the buttons working.
                  Funny, I have one of those too, and also funny... all the buttons do something with no 3rd party software required.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by ninez View Post
                    Games aren't the only type of apps that require (or it is prefered) to have fast drivers. The OSS (GFX) drivers not being feature complete and slower is a problem, if you are doing anything but basic crap. I do however, agree for a simple setup drivers aren't always hard to configure...however, this changes when doing anything remotely specific. ie: i have to do extra manual work to have my soundcard work the way it does in MacOSX OOTB. GFX cards can be harder to setup with multi-display setups. (including HDMI setups with AVRs).

                    it sounds to me, that you just don't require anything special, which essentially makes your points 'pointless'.



                    this is true of most distros. In Archlinux to upgrade my Nvidia binary driver (patched for MSI and RT) is a single command to install. ie: effortless



                    Sometimes true, but not always. I can't even begin to count how many times i've had to dig around the web, to find some piece of information about something i was using. Documentation is decent in most cases, though.



                    How is it impossible, exactly?! Sometimes, code hits before hardware is even released. So how can this be impossible?



                    Clearly, you haven't worked with enough soundcards to have a clue what you are talking about. I've had numerous problems with MOBO soundcards over the years, and support for USB / firewire / PCI is a joke compared to Mac or Windows. So many vendors don't support Linux at all, and other drivers are hack jobs that barely work. Some require manual intervention to be able to use, and can be a pain. Also, and this really sucks! - many linux soundcard drivers only support some parts of a given sound card, and some can't even use higher quality sample rates. Some usb2.0 cards that could - are often buggy with USB2.0 as well - which is a serious issue for anyone who plans on using multitrack-recording (using multiple inputs/captures.



                    I've had issues every single time i buy a new Wacom Tablet. This includes not only driver issues, but even Xorg issues - and still to this day, my multi-touch tablet works 3x better in MacOSX OOTB - no fussing around at all... I've had issues with Webcams (recently). I've had issues with scanners (in the past). As for keyboards and mice - yes they usually work as expected - but those are only 2 examples of 'generic peripherals'. Try working with less common stuff, and then get back to us!



                    wifi - totally depends, there are still people wrapping windows drivers (ndis), and then there are poorly reverse-engineered drivers that some users are stuck with, that are buggy and suck. Bluetooth works great over here though - but it didn't work properly with my Wiimote OOTB - i had to build some software from sources, to get it to work the way i wanted it too.



                    I just listed a bunch of exceptions.

                    I am happy droidhacker that you never experience any problems, but lots of people do - and this IS a weak area / problematic part of linux - that you seem to just completely ignore as being valid, since you personally don't have any problems. How ignorant of you :\
                    I am, of course, referring to PRESENT TIME, CURRENT HARDWARE, with a specific emphasis on MY current hardware. 10 years ago, yeah, it was a pain in the ass getting anything working on Linux. EVERY DAY it gets easier. Its been a few years now that it has been EASIER to get hardware working on Linux than on microshit. It is now TRIVIAL, while it is still like pulling teeth to get anything simple working on microdeath.

                    My absolute favorite microshit driver problem is LAN drivers... because you can't even download the rest of the drivers until you have those working.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
                      And the fact that I can just take ANY brand new computer from the store, drop in the F17 install disk, and end up with a FULLY functional desktop, PROVES that you haven't a leg to stand on with that one.
                      This is not fact, more likly it a myth you are trying to start. Googleing for ""fedora 17" "not working on my"" gives about 51k hits, mot of them hardware related. ""fedora 17" "not working with"" will serve you another 233K, instead of wasting every bodys time here you should probably go help out some of the unfortunate useres with your magical advice.

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                      • #41
                        IME driver support is pretty nice out-of-the-box... but if you do have any problems, you're in a world of hurt unless you're a technical person. I've had some real fun problems but it was somewhat trivial (yet annoying) for me to fix... but ordinary desktop-oriented folk would be beyond screwed.

                        The question I have is whether or not the driver problems are because hardware vendors don't support Linux due to lack of consumer demand... or if the hurdle is more focused around the philosophy of kernel development (e.g., unstable API) or the license issues.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
                          I am, of course, referring to PRESENT TIME, CURRENT HARDWARE, with a specific emphasis on MY current hardware. 10 years ago, yeah, it was a pain in the ass getting anything working on Linux. EVERY DAY it gets easier. Its been a few years now that it has been EASIER to get hardware working on Linux than on microshit. It is now TRIVIAL, while it is still like pulling teeth to get anything simple working on microdeath.
                          What part of 'recently' did you not understand, exactly? i am not talking about 10 years ago, i am talking in terms of 2010-12, on my machines and other people i know -> ie: *VERY RECENTLY*. ...And again, there is nothing trivial about hardware being poorly supported, buggy (or not being able to use certain features), having to manually configure things or it not being supported at all. - You obviously just don't use much crap beyond generic stuff - otherwise you would know better.

                          Fair enough, that you are putting 'emphasis' on your own situation - but you make it sound like these problems, don't even exist - which obviously they do. Half of what you wrote i was easily (without even thinking about it) able to point out real-world examples and shortcomings.

                          Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
                          My absolute favorite microshit driver problem is LAN drivers... because you can't even download the rest of the drivers until you have those working.
                          Yeah, i don't worry about MS problems, unless i am being paid to do, so however, it is pretty trivial to jump on another machine, download them, put on a usbstick and then install them on the other machine. It's also fairly rare that the OEM doesn't include them when you purchase a machine. (i personally have never run into this LAN problem, and part of my job is MS admin.)

                          I'd also like to point out (in reply to another of yours above). It isn't only 3d professionals that require good acceleration and support for things like OpenCL. For example, Gimp a non-professional image editing suite uses GEGL - does support OpenCL (from git anyway) - I would love to see an OSS driver can beat my Nvidia in how fast operations happen. I would not want to use a piss-pot slow OpenCL implementation with Gimp - that is a serious usability issue (slow!).

                          it seems like you just lok at your own use cases, and pretty much say @#$$ you, to everyone else. You should stop making silly assumptions on what other users requirements are and should be.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by AJenbo View Post
                            This is not fact, more likly it a myth you are trying to start. Googleing for ""fedora 17" "not working on my"" gives about 51k hits, mot of them hardware related. ""fedora 17" "not working with"" will serve you another 233K, instead of wasting every bodys time here you should probably go help out some of the unfortunate useres with your magical advice.
                            Uh huh? You know how a google search works?
                            (1) it will give you many duplicate links,
                            (2) it will give you, despite quotes, links with missing terms (add in all references to "not working" that aren't associated with f17)
                            (3) it will give you all the links where the same person complained about the same thing in a thousand different places,
                            (4) it will give you links to every different post within the same thread.

                            Your search is flawed.

                            Maybe try searching for similar thing against microshit. Instead of tens or hundreds of thousands of "hits" (whatever meaning you attribute to that...), you'll get BILLIONS.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by ninez View Post
                              What part of 'recently' did you not understand, exactly? i am not talking about 10 years ago, i am talking in terms of 2010-12, on my machines and other people i know -> ie: *VERY RECENTLY*. ...And again, there is nothing trivial about hardware being poorly supported, buggy (or not being able to use certain features), having to manually configure things or it not being supported at all. - You obviously just don't use much crap beyond generic stuff - otherwise you would know better.

                              Fair enough, that you are putting 'emphasis' on your own situation - but you make it sound like these problems, don't even exist - which obviously they do. Half of what you wrote i was easily (without even thinking about it) able to point out real-world examples and shortcomings.
                              Problems exist with EVERY complex system. NO EXCEPTIONS.
                              Simple fact is that microshit has MORE and WORSE problems.

                              If you don't agree with that, then GO BEND OVER FOR STEVE BALMER.
                              A warning though: He uses CHAIRS.

                              Yeah, i don't worry about MS problems, unless i am being paid to do, so however, it is pretty trivial to jump on another machine, download them, put on a usbstick and then install them on the other machine. It's also fairly rare that the OEM doesn't include them when you purchase a machine. (i personally have never run into this LAN problem, and part of my job is MS admin.)

                              I'd also like to point out (in reply to another of yours above). It isn't only 3d professionals that require good acceleration and support for things like OpenCL. For example, Gimp a non-professional image editing suite uses GEGL - does support OpenCL (from git anyway) - I would love to see an OSS driver can beat my Nvidia in how fast operations happen. I would not want to use a piss-pot slow OpenCL implementation with Gimp - that is a serious usability issue (slow!).

                              it seems like you just lok at your own use cases, and pretty much say @#$$ you, to everyone else. You should stop making silly assumptions on what other users requirements are and should be.
                              Gimp does not require 3D acceleration.
                              MS says fuck you to *EVERYONE*.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
                                My absolute favorite microshit driver problem is LAN drivers...
                                Get a motherboard with a Realtek r8169 NIC and load Linux on and enjoy some fun. Pretend for a moment that you're just an ordinary, non-technical guy that doesn't know anything about compiling software, installing kernel modules, or even about how to diagnose random hard freezes.

                                This is an example of why vendors like Gigabyte say "just use Windows".

                                Not that you can really blame Realtek about it... their driver works flawlessly and is GPL'd. So in theory any fixes should make it into the kernel some day (if they haven't already).

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